Engine won't start

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James
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Engine won't start

Post by James »

Hi all,


Engine ran fine a couple of months ago. It's got colder here — but I don't think that's entirely it.

It just doesn't catch — I get the odd backfire when I switch the ignition off.

Attached are the MSQ and MSLs from today.


James
Attachments
triumph2000_20171228.msq
(182.4 KiB) Downloaded 29 times
2017-12-28_11.39.34.msl
(66.5 KiB) Downloaded 26 times
2017-12-28_11.36.35.msl
(302.94 KiB) Downloaded 28 times
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
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Matt Cramer
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Re: Engine won't start

Post by Matt Cramer »

Something's wrong with the crank sensor input. Can you get a tooth log of an attempted start?
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
James
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Re: Engine won't start

Post by James »

Hi Matt,


See attached.


James
Attachments
2017-12-28_14.54.21.csv
(47.71 KiB) Downloaded 29 times
2017-12-28_14.53.38.csv
(27.75 KiB) Downloaded 29 times
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
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Matt Cramer
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Re: Engine won't start

Post by Matt Cramer »

It's missing a lot more teeth than the missing teeth. Try a tighter sensor gap, or adjusting the VR trim pots.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
James
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Re: Engine won't start

Post by James »

HI Matt,


For sure something was up with the sensor and the connector. The crimps on the connector weren't so good, and the plastic on the sensor had gone soft over time so was a bit wobbly. (read — bad crank sensor mount design) So I replaced those, hoping it would be the issue.

Looking at TunerStudio whilst it's cranking it's still not syncing right.

The tooth logger on screen looked much better — but still no starting. I've attached the logs.


James
Attachments
2018-01-14_10.49.48.msl
(576.26 KiB) Downloaded 27 times
2018-01-14_10.51.42.csv
(23.54 KiB) Downloaded 33 times
2018-01-14_10.51.37.csv
(33.17 KiB) Downloaded 28 times
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
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James
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Posts: 316
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: London, England

Re: Engine won't start

Post by James »

Looking at the logs — could it be that the voltage is dropping off and causing the sync error 2?

It goes down to 7V or so.

The battery turns over the engine reasonably ok — but all this attempting to start has had a bit of a toll.
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
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Matt Cramer
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Re: Engine won't start

Post by Matt Cramer »

There's still a few points where it fails to read a real tooth. More cranking voltage would boost cranking speed, and if this is a VR sensor, more cranking speed gives a stronger signal.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
billr
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Re: Engine won't start

Post by billr »

I gotta admit: I didn't look at the MSL last night, only the CSVs. Your cranking rpm is only about 130, not what I would call "reasonable". Get a good battery in there before looking for other problems. Were you activating the throttle wildly during some of those crankings, or is that TP action logged a separate symptom?
James
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Re: Engine won't start

Post by James »

Matt Cramer wrote:There's still a few points where it fails to read a real tooth. More cranking voltage would boost cranking speed, and if this is a VR sensor, more cranking speed gives a stronger signal.
Yep it's a VR sensor. I'll connect up a jump battery to give it some more juice.
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
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James
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Posts: 316
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Location: London, England

Re: Engine won't start

Post by James »

billr wrote:I gotta admit: I didn't look at the MSL last night, only the CSVs. Your cranking rpm is only about 130, not what I would call "reasonable". Get a good battery in there before looking for other problems. Were you activating the throttle wildly during some of those crankings, or is that TP action logged a separate symptom?
I'll sort the battery and try again. I did have my foot on the throttle — no idea why! Out of frustration probably :)
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
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James
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Re: Engine won't start

Post by James »

So, used jump leads — engine turns over much better now.

Still seem to be getting a sync error.
Attachments
2018-01-24_11.28.36.msl
(227.95 KiB) Downloaded 26 times
2018-01-24_11.24.26.msl
(757.4 KiB) Downloaded 21 times
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
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James
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Posts: 316
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: London, England

Re: Engine won't start

Post by James »

And the tooth logs
Attachments
2018-01-24_11.29.35.csv
(79.21 KiB) Downloaded 29 times
2018-01-24_11.23.57.csv
(71.35 KiB) Downloaded 20 times
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
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James
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Posts: 316
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: London, England

Re: Engine won't start

Post by James »

Just a thought - is there any chance that when I wired up the sensor to “fix” it that I’ve now wired it up backwards?

James
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
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LAV1000
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Re: Engine won't start

Post by LAV1000 »

James wrote:Just a thought - is there any chance that when I wired up the sensor to “fix” it that I’ve now wired it up backwards?

James
Don't think so.
There is something wrong in latest toothlogs.
Loking at the logs and starting whit the long missing tooth there should be 35 tooth before the next Long missing tooth.
Sometimes it is 34 or more than 35.

Did you replace the sensor or just reconnected it ?
James
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Posts: 316
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Location: London, England

Re: Engine won't start

Post by James »

I replaced the sensor and also replaced the connector as the crimping was a bit iffy.

LAV1000 wrote:
James wrote:Just a thought - is there any chance that when I wired up the sensor to “fix” it that I’ve now wired it up backwards?

James
Don't think so.
There is something wrong in latest toothlogs.
Loking at the logs and starting whit the long missing tooth there should be 35 tooth before the next Long missing tooth.
Sometimes it is 34 or more than 35.

Did you replace the sensor or just reconnected it ?
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
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LAV1000
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Re: Engine won't start

Post by LAV1000 »

Matt Cramer wrote:It's missing a lot more teeth than the missing teeth. Try a tighter sensor gap, or adjusting the VR trim pots.
Did you try this whit the replaced sensor ?
James
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Re: Engine won't start

Post by James »

No, that is a good point!
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
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James
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 316
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:04 pm
Location: London, England

Re: Engine won't start

Post by James »

Hi all,


I thought this had gone away — and have erroneously been chasing weird timing issues.

From what I can see with the tooth log - it seems to be counting teeth ok? This log was taken with the injectors and coil disconnected as they are backfiring badly when connected. There's also a log from today which shows the sync error.

I have also attached a log from it partially running yesterday.

Is there something I am missing?


James
Attachments
2021-02-24_11.55.51.mlg
(41.9 KiB) Downloaded 17 times
2021-02-24_11.46.51.csv
(32.89 KiB) Downloaded 17 times
2021-02-23_17.57.31.msl
(249.93 KiB) Downloaded 18 times
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
Twitter
Matt Cramer
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Re: Engine won't start

Post by Matt Cramer »

The tooth log was doing fine right up until the very last page...
tooth log noise pulse.PNG
tooth log noise pulse.PNG (24.03 KiB) Viewed 280 times
Fairly minor noise issue, but more likely to cause a loss of sync than a backfire. If you're getting fairly continuous backfires, make sure the timing is OK.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
James
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Re: Engine won't start

Post by James »

Thanks, Matt.

Does the megasquirt "recover" from that kind of oddity? Does it filter over it or is it troublesome?

My car has 3 x ignitors inside the MS box — running to a wasted spark coil pack. (it's a 6 cyl)

Have spent more time on the car and pointing the strobe at it. Coils 2 and 3 are working fine and firing around TDC... but coil 1 seems to be firing totally out — by almost 180 degrees.


James
Triumph 2000 Mk1 — 2 litre straight 6 — MS3+MS3X, 36-1, wasted spark — Install Details
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