Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellaneous

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adrian3500
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Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellaneous

Post by adrian3500 »

Hello,

Didn't know where to post my topic, regarding to all the stuff i'm dealing with. If it's not ok here, please forgive me, and move it where you think it belongs:)

Car: - Citroen Axel (OLTCIT) aircooled 1.3 boxer with a Garret T25 turbo
- 4cyl engine
- 4 injectors, 4 coil on plugs

Stuffs installed:
- megasquirt 2 extra, v3.0
- all the injection stuff is taken from a Honda Civic EP1 1.4 engine, with 90hp(injectors, COP, crankshaft sensor, IAT sensor, CLT sensor)

Setup:
- semi-sequential
- wasted COP
- 36-1 trigger wheel
- 2 squirts simultaneous at start of pulse
- high impedance injectors
- 3 wire COP

After some problems with the board, I've sent it to DaveEFI in England to fix it. Got the board back, got the engine starting and working relatively ok. Managed to find out the correct angle of #1 tooth, managed to install the idle valve. Played a lot with megasquirt setup for Alpha-N, switched now for Speed Density.

Struggled to get the engine to idle under 1800-2000rpm(afr 9-11, fuel load 38-42), but with no good results.

Tried to change the spark plugs, and realized that it ain't no spark at cyl2.
Tested with the same coil at all the 4 sparkplugs, in test mode, and there is no spark at cyl2(spark D).
Megasquirt is wired for wasted cop, all the coils wired separately, to IGN, SPR2, SPR3, SPR4.
- checked if the coil for cyl2 is getting any 12v. It's ok
- checked if cyl2 is wired correctly to SPR4, db37 pin 6.
- checked for the schematics made on the board for spark D, seems ok to me.
Any ideas guys?

Also, other 'not so important' problems:
- weird stuff is that today i didn't manage to open my project in TunerStudio. Unnexpected error ocured opening project. Managed to start a temp project, and use the latest msq that i've saved.
- sometimes i've got a big variation of 12v from battery. Like from 11.1 to 12.6. Maybe the 12v wire from the battery is too small for the amount of current that's used?
- the CLT sensor is going crazy sometimes. Actually I'm using a water CLT sensor, calibrated with the 3 point method. Now it's measuring my oil temperature...because the engine is air cooled. The sensor is installed near the oil pressure sensor, on the upper part of the engine, and i know for sure that it's not showing the actual oil temperature, but still, i don't think it should go from 40 to 120 in 3 seconds, or stay at 65degree all the time. Or to show the correct temp after a engine restart. It has only 1 wire, directly to megasquirt. Tried with a new sensor too, and i've got the same results.

Attached msq / log, but don't got any recent ones.
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

The CLT sensor is only 1-wire, grounding through the engine? That may be giving weird readings due to slight voltage drops in the sensor-engine-MS ground path. Using a 2-wire sensor, with its ground going directly to the MS, is probably going to work much better.
adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

will do that.
meanwhile, got another messy problem (for me at least). No spark at coil no4(sparkD, pin 6 on db3).

-resoldered the built circuit, same thing, no sparkD
- changed the 2N3904BU tranzistor, nothing happened
- checked if at all the outputs of the coils, i get a voltage when in test mode. Afirmative for sparkA, sparkB, sparkC. (about 1.5-1.7v). When testing sparkD, i got only 0.1v. when no testing i got 0v.
what's wrong?



the circuit built for spark D is from here, for logic level ignition coils
http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/sparkout-v30.html
-resoldered, same thing, no sparkD
- changed the 2N3904BU tranzistor, nothing happened
- checked if at all the outputs of the coils, i get a voltage when in test mode. Afirmative for sparkA, sparkB, sparkC. (about 1.5-1.7v). When testing sparkD, i got only 0v. when no testing i got 0v.
what's wrong?

the circuit built for spark D is from here, for logic level ignition coils
http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/sparkout-v30.html

made some voltage measurements....everything is the same for sparkD, when testing or not, in test mode for sparks.
js11 - 4.82
spr4 - 0.01
pin6 of db37 - 0.01
ground leg of tranzistor - 0
middle leg of tranzistor - 0.76
right leg of tranzistor (which is soldered with a 4k7 rezistence) - 0.01
5v voltage supply - ok - 4.82v - it's taking the 5v from the same pin on the proto area.
billr
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

I have been trying to help this OP recently, in PM, but am not familiar with MS2 and those extra coil-driver mods; the OP needs somebody else to join in here!

OP, post the MSQ here, so we can all have it handy. Do it as the native MSQ, not a "drop-box" link. Next, I would open the connection to JS11 and see if voltage at JS11 now can be varied in test mode, or if it is still "stuck" at 5V (4.82V indicated).
adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

Disconected the 1k resistance from js11, and measured voltage at js11 in test mode for spark D (set for 800rpm) voltage is 4.90v and goes down to 4.60 when testing is on. If test mode set for 50rpm, voltage is constant 4.90.
Yesterday i was tryin' to do something...and when i installed a wire from the 5v from proto area, directly to the tranzistor leg, i got spark. Essentially i removed from the equation the 4k7 resistor. But then i realized i blowed up the coil i was testing. I think i messed up....
adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

managed to fix sparkD, by replacing the transistor and both of resistors, used for sparkD.
now the engine runs smoother, i think before this, the engine wasn't always working with all the 4 cylinders.
now i'm going to try to tune the maps properly.
adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

still can't get the engine to idle correctly.
i will replace the coolant temperature sensor with a 2 wire sensor so i can get a better read of the temperature, but i tried to eliminate as much possible the idle valve, and all corrections related to cold engine. Even disconected the idle valve...but nothing changed. (it's a pwm 3 wire valve from Honda Civic Ep1 1.4is D14Z6). Messed around with all the settings at StartUp/Idle...still can't get it idle normally.

it idles at 1500rpm....with 7.4 AFR...fuel load 50-60%.
if i get more fuel to the engine, the idle will go down, and the engine goes badly. If i get less fuel to the engine, the idle keeps going up to 2000-2500rpm(at 20-25% fuel load the idle is over 2400rpm).
At the same time as i've modified the fuel load, i tried moving around the spark table. No effects.
It's so much fuel at idle rpm, that it's getting into the oil slowly, increasing the oil quantity in the engine. So it's not ok.

i replaced the sealings at the intake and at the exhaust pipe (everything before the wideband lambda)
i tried to increase or decrease the fuel pressure from 2bar to 4.4bar....but the engine works almost the same, same issue. Currently working at ~3bar fuel pressure.
switched from Alpha-N tables to Speed Density. As i've red, it's recommanded for turbo engines.
Same stuff happening with the idle.

Here is an msq and log file...
maybe someone can help me.
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

It seems like you are trying to idle it too rich, lean it out and take care of the increased idle speed by closing the throttle stop or IAC more. If you have any vacuum leaks, then get rid of them, of course.

What puzzles me is that the MSQ indicates that you should be quite lean already, the VE values are all generally way low. Have you flowed the injectors to verify rate and dead-time at the current pressure? Even if you don't want to bother, right now, checking dead-time, I urge you to do at least a check on the flow rate; that is pretty quick and easy to do.
adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

i re-checked for air leaks, even at the injectors, and hoses from fuel pressure regulator, MAP sensor, and blow off valve.
now that you mentioned, i did never touch the throttle stop when adjusting for idle. Only tried to get idle right by adjusting fuel load. I will try to do this tomorrow. Also, will try to look up for the flow rate
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

hello,
managed to find the flow of my injectors: 190. Modified the settings for the new flow (before it was 180).
managed to get some kind of idle. Sometimes it idles rough at 1200-1300rpm, sometimes it goes up and down from 1100rpm to 1800rpm. I don't understand why.
Sometimes the engine wants to idle at 2000-2500rpm, so in the Ve Table i had to lower the fuel percentage in that area, because the engine would not go back to idle at 1000-1200rpm. (if i increase the spark table in the area of 2000-2500rpm, the engine will go up to 2000rpm and idle there.)
If i VE analyze it, and accept the new table, it will screw everything up, getting a 1800-2000rpm idle.


Also, installed the 2 wires coolant temp sensor, calibrated the sensor with the 3 point method, but still got problems with it.
As the engine is stopped, ignition on, it will show correct temperature. After I start the engine, and the engine is running a few minutes, the temperature modifies only a little. After taking a ride with the car, the coolant temp settles at about 20degree Celsius. After I stop the engine, the temp goes up to 100-120degree, and goes down to real temperature (50-60degree), stays there up to 30seconds, and keeps going down to 10-20degree. After I start the engine, the temp goes up to the real temp, settles for a few seconds, and keeps going down After I stop the engine, i will get again the real temp.
I don't know what the problem seems to be. The sensor is new. With the 1 wire sensor the problem was almost the same.
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

How did you get that VE table? The values are way off from what a real engine would require.

Did you actually flow the injectors? Values you "find" online may not be applicable.
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

Hello,
Yes, i did flow my injectors, and made the math according to megasquirt flow test.
As i drived the car a few times these days, noticed that sometimes the engine is running ok with the current ve table, and sometimes the idle will go down to 800-900rpm, sometimes idles at 1200-1300rpm, and sometimes will go up to 2000rpm. Same settings, same engine temp. Just restarted the engine a few times and let it run for a minute or so, and got very different idle

Also, regarding the engine coolant temp.
I swapped today the harness between the coolant temp and the air temp, recalibrated the sensors so now the coolant trmp sensor si basically the air temp. Did the test with cold engine. No engine started in last 10 hours.
Before swapping, with ignition on, -10 degree outside
- coolant temp sensor goes to 110degree, and keeps dropping until will reach 20-30degree, and then stops. After ignition switched off and an a few times, the temp will go to normal value, -10degree
- air temp instantly displays correct temp

After swapping the harness and recalibrate thermistor tables, with ignition on, -10 degree outside
- coolant temp does the same stuff
- air temp does the same stuff.

Basically seems to me that it could be a megasquirt problem here. I will make a new harness for test, but i don't see the point, as the 2 wires are in one piece, and wired corectly.
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

Do I understand correctly, the inconsistent reading is always CLT, when either sensor is connected to that input? I assume you don't have a Stim to check the MS alone, but you could put a resistor on the DB37 pin for that input and see if it became stable; do that with nothing else connected to the input.

I wish some others would join in here, I don't want to lead you astray and readily admit I may be wrong about some things. All I can say about VE is that a value of 50 means the engine is breathing very poorly if all other factors are correct. I wouldn't expect that low a VE for even an old flat-head lawnmower engine! As I recall, your MAT, WUE, injector trim, AFR table, and Baro corrections are all reasonable; so that leaves only req_fuel or dead-time as possible culprits that I know of. The only thing I can suggest is to turn off EGO control, get any issues with that out of the equation for now.

I don't know how much you are relying on the O2 sensor (VEAL) for tuning, but pay attention to how the engine actually runs, even if the AFR reading doesn't seem quite right. There are several ways that WB reading can be inaccurate. Leave "include AFR" on, though, so that the calculations still use your AFR table.
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

yes, the inconsistency is always the CLT. So the problem is not the sensor, for sure.
I don't have a Stim, but if things will go in this manner, i will probably buy one :yeah!:
i will try the trick with the resistor.

The EGO control is already turned off. If i turn it on, with acces 10-30%, idle will go up to 2400rpm, but the engine will run smoother in cruising rpm.
Also, if i VE analyze the log, and accept the new table, the idle rpm will go up to 2200-2400rpm. (it's not important to me now the behaviour of the engine in cruising rpm or high rpm)
Also, if in the VEtable at 600rpm if i take the fuel load under 50% the idle drops to 800-900rpm, but then when i try to restart the engine...d***, it won't turn on unless i press a few times the gas pedal, and when it starts it's like choked with fuel (runs badly).

I'm running high impedance injectors.
Injector dead time 0.900
Battery voltage correction 0.200
PWM current limiting ON
PWM current limit 100 (as i've read, basically it disables current limiting, and it should be like this for high impedance injectors)
PWM time threshold 25.4
Injector PWM period 66

Made a new log/tune file, tried to play around with things, but the results are pretty the same. For a resonable idle (900-1200rpm) the fuel load is aprox. 28. Ignition advance 10-12degree. But the idle is unstable, oscilating from 800 to 1600rpm. Even if i don't change anything, with an engine restart, the idle changes( restart 1 - idle 800-1000, restart 2 - idle 900-1100, restart 3 - idle 900-1300)
Maybe i have an injector problem? Maybe one of them isn't working correctly?
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

Does VEAL result in increases in the VE table? Although I may have sounded pessimistic about relying on the WB and VEAL, let's not ignore it, either. If VEAL results in an increased engine rpm, then use those VE values and control idle speed with the throttle stop. If you can go completely closed with the throttle and still not get down to a low idle, then there must be a vacuum leak in the intake system or the IAC isn't operating properly. Do not try to control idle speed by mixture quality (AFR), which is what it seems you are doing by running it way lean with a too-low VE.
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by grom_e30 »

whats going on with the wue stuff down to 20% at the top of the table.

i think the injection staging/squirts per cycle stuff may be wrong giving extra fuel. i would turn it to un-timed injection and use 2 squirts alternating
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

tried with the resistor plugged right to the coolant temp input.
Same thing is happening. Ignition on = temp goes from 120degree down to 60-70 in a few seconds, stays there a few seconds, and after that goes slowly down to 30-40degree and stops there even if it's not the right temp. After a few ignition on-off, i got the real temp 10-15degree.
Replaced the two wires of the coolant temp, same thing is happening.
Tried to recalibrate(using the measurements i took at 3 different temp), tried also to use other similiar calibrations found for honda civic coolant temp sensor. Same thing is happening.

So what could be wrong? And why is happening this only to the coolant temp? The air temp shows up the correct temp as soon as i put the ignition on.

I will try these days untimed injection with 2 squirts alternating. Maybe i will get better results.
But i need to fix somehow the coolant temp.....
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

You had the dummy resistor right at the mainboard DB37 connector, no other wiring? If so, then I'm suspecting the board assembly. Have I ever asked for pictures of the mainboard, both sides? I would like to do visual inspection.
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

Yes, only the dummy resistor conected.
Here is a link with some photos of the mainboard.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/w5pujs3egs3e ... XAmqa?dl=0

Found in the assembly guide that R4 and R7 are the bias resistors for the temp sensors.
Which one is for the coolant temp? i should disconect them to measure them, right?
I tried to measure them as they are on the board. 2.3k ohm both of them.
I will try to measure them disconected, and even replace them.
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

R4 is the MAT, R7 is CLT. You can measure them well enough "in-circuit", no need to remove. I'll have to study those pix, see if I can spot anything visually. Has the MS2 daughterboard only been installed once? I would try removing it and re-install. I am always wary of those 40-pin sockets, sometimes a "re-insertion" fixes a poor contact there.
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