Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellaneous

Ask questions about DIY board assembly issues, fault finding and testing. (Covers all Megasquirt versions and board.)

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adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

Re-soldered the wires to spr2, spr3, now i got spark for all coils again.
But now the engine does not work ok, it's accelerating very badly.
The map sensor is ar -0.60bar at idle, but when i accelerate the engine it's only showing 0.10, 0,20bar boost even if it's clear that the engine produces more than 0.20bar because the blow off valve is making it's normal noise.
Same thing when the engine is at 3-4000rpm, boost should be 0.8-1.0bar, the noise of the blow off valve is there, but the map sensor is showing only 0.20-0.25bar

What is wrong? Bad map sensor? Or could it be something else? No software mods, standard map sensor that comes wirh megasquirt 2
Checked the hose from the engine to the map sensor, it's ok.
Disconected the hose from map sensor at idle, and i got vacum
Sucked from the hose that goes to map sensor, i got -0.50 vaacum
Blowed into the hose, got only 0.01 bar

The thing is that when i was re-soldering the wires to spr2, spr3, i uscrewed the 2 plastic bolts that hold the map sensor, and lifted the map sensor a little bit.
Tried to push on the map sensor, tried to loosen the bolts, tried poking the legs of map sensor, nothing has changed.
billr
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

Did you try re-heating/soldering all the leads to the MAP sensor, to get full solder fill on both sides of the board? Those joints don't look truly "bad" in the pictures you posted, but they don't look quite perfect, either; and that was before you moved it any.
adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

Yes, tried re-heating, re-soldering
I ordered a new map sensor, i actually found one for sale here in Romania. I will install it tomorrow, and I hope it will work. If not...then I am in trouble :yeah!:
adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

Replaced the map sensor.
The engine is still running very messy, it does not accelerate ok, it's working worst like a stock engine.
Still no boost on map sensor, barely 0.10bar
I noticed that the oil level went up, fuel is getting into the oil, like it's getting more fuel than needed.
I did not change anything on ve-table or spar table since the engine was working decent, but i will try messing with these tomorrow and i will post some logs.

I checked if every coil is working
I checked if every injector is working
I replaced the spark plugs, 2 were wet:(
The engine is fully sync-ed
I don't understand what happened. The engine worked decent before the problem with the coils.
I'm sure i did not inverted spr2, spr3....in test mode coils fire in the correct order.
adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

Hi again,

I didn't have time to mess around with the car, but today i did some research

The engine's firing order is 1-4-3-2.
Spark A is cyl1, spark B is cyl4, Spark C is cyl3, spark D is cyl2

So the last issues were no spark B, C. (spr2, spr3). I resoldered the wires to the outputs (spr2, spr3)
The megasquirt is wired for wasted COP, so every coil goes to it's own output

In test mode, every coil is getting spark.
In test mode, every injector is working.

In real life, the engine is running only on 2 cylinders, 1 and 2.
There is no response if i unplug the coils at cyl3 or cyl4.
The coils are working, changed the coils between them, but the problem is still at cyl3, cyl4
Checked if the injectors work, even changed between them, fuel is getting into the oil, so it's flooded at cyl3 and cyl4.
Checked if the engine has compression at cyl3, cyl4, and it's OK.
Changed the spark plugs between them.

The problem is persistent at cyl3 and cyl4.

In tunerstudio, tried to go for semi-sequential, or untimed, 2squirts simultaneous, 4squirts alternating. I even messed up the fuel table, thinking it would help, maybe too much or too less fuel is getting to the cylinders.
Same results, problem at cyl3, cyl4.

I'm attaching some msq and log, maybe it will help.
I don't understand if in test mode everything is ok, why isn't the engine running ok?
I suppose that this could be some coil driver problem, and now is working only 1 coil at each coil driver? but why?
billr
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

Are you absolutely, positively, certain about the firing order; checked by turning the engine with a finger over each plug hole, feeling for compression?
adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

Yes.
It's a flat 4cyl boxer engine (like citroen gs / gsa), 2 cylinder heads. Left side of the engine is cyl1 and 2, right side is cyl3, 4.

Firing order 1-4-3-2
Running coil on plugs from a honda civic ep1 1.4is 2005.
Wired megasquirt for wasted cop, logic level input , spark A - cyl 1, spark B - cyl 4, spark C - cyl 3, sprak D - cyl 2. Worked ok until the problem with no spark B / C, and I solved it by re-soldering the wires to spr2, spr3. I didn't change anything at the wiring since i installed the fuel injection.
All the four cyl have compression, and in test mode every coil is working, and every injector is working.
Checked in test mode if every coil is fired in the correct order. Everything ok.

Still, when the enginee is running, cylinder 3 and 4 are not working. The fuel from the cylinders is getting into the oil.
So there is no spark...even if in test mode i got spark for all coils.
billr
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

Do you see no flashing of the timing-light when it is on #3 or 4?

My understanding is that crank has four independent throws, with the end two in-phase and the center two 180 deg. opposite; is that correct? Cylinders 1 and 2 share one head, and 3-4 share the other; is that correct? That isn't a common engine here in the USA, so I want to be sure I am understanding the diagrams I can find.
adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

I will check with timing gun also, but so far seems that way, no spark at cyl3, cyl4 while the engine is running.
The engine Is like the old vw beetle engine(but not sure about ignition on that engine), maybe that's more common than citroen gs/gsa. Air cooled flat 4cyl boxer engine.
I'm running only semi-sequential, with crankshaft sensor.
You understood corectly how the engine looks like.

I repeat....in test mode, every coil is working, every led is blinking. Every injector is working. I switched between them the coils, the injectors, the spark plugs. But the problem will be still at cyl3 and cyl4. The fuel from cyl3 and cyl4 is not "burned", is getting into the oil...so i assume there is no spark. I will check with timing gun also.
There ks definitely compresion at cyl3 and cyl4. Also definitely sure about wiring corectly the coils and the injectors. Checked in test mode if everything is working in correct order.

The engine worked ok wired as is is, until the problem with no spark cyl3, no spark cyl4 when i resoldered the wires to spr2, spr3.
I tried messing around with semi-sequential, untimed, 2squirts simultaneius, 4 squirts alternating, same results. While the engine is running i got no response if i unplug the coils from cyl3 and cyl4.

Or maybe it's a software issue? But it worked ok untill now...
LAV1000
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by LAV1000 »

Try this to see if every plug sparks.
Unscrew the plugs but keep then connected to ground/engine.
disconnect injector wires, you don't want fuel fumes and ignition outside your cillinders !!

Now crank the engine and look if all the spark plugs fire.
adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

I will try this tomorrow afternoon.
adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

So, i unplugged the coils from cyl3 and cyl4, let them outside of the engine, inserted some spark plugs into them and started the engine.

I got spark at both the cylinders.
So now I am more than confused....

If I got compression, spark, and gas...why no reaction when unplugging the coils at cyl3 and cyl4?
Compression is definitely there. Checked with unplugged spark plugs.
Spark is definitely there. Checked with unplugged coils.
Gas is definitely there. The fuel from the 2 cylinders is getting into the oil.
I changed between them the coils, the injectors, the spark plugs...but the no response is still at cyl3 and cyl4.
Re-checked the initial timing with the timing gun.

I'm confused and without any clue about what the problem might be. I mean, the engine worked ok with all the cylinders with the current wiring.
billr
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

Did you ever check the firing order by feeling for compression at each plug hole, while cranking by hand? I understand compression pressure is OK, I'm wondering if you aren't confused about the cylinder numbering. I don't mean to insult you, but something has to be wrong, and that is fairly easy to try.
adrian3500
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by adrian3500 »

Yes, i checked the firing order by feeling for compresion.
billr
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

"I will check with timing gun also, but so far seems that way, no spark at cyl3, cyl4 while the engine is running. "

Remember that from earlier in this thread? Is that still true? Seeing a spark "out in the open" isn't conclusive that you have spark when compression pressure is present. Better yet, put an extra timing mark on the crank pulley/flywheel so you can check that timing is correct on those two. It doesn't have to be real accurate, just a piece of white tape or dab of paint.

Compression pressure is good, but that also isn't entirely conclusive. Compression will be fine, even if exhaust valves never open. Consider checking operation of the valves, even if it means a quick, messy, run with the valve cover off. Obviously, resolving the "no spark" issue must be done first!
billr
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by billr »

What kind of coils are you using?



"I noticed that the oil level went up, fuel is getting into the oil, like it's getting more fuel than needed."

You have mentioned several times that fuel is getting into the oil. That puzzles me. I have had a couple of engines flood so bad that they hydraulically "locked", yet there was no obvious change in the oil or oil level. I would expect fuel in a running engine would all pretty much blow out the exhaust, with very little getting past the rings. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that it may be a hint of something really odd.
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Re: Citroen Axel(Oltcit) 1.3turbo - Ms2Extra3.0 - miscellane

Post by LAV1000 »

Flooded spark plugs seem to work in open air, outside cillinder.
But don't work well under compression inside cillinder.

Put some new ones in or clean them with a flame.
Also check if injectors flow the same amount, when starting the engine.
If you do this unscrew the spark plugs and disconnect the coils.

No compression is easier on starter and battery.
This way you also vent the flooded cillinders.
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