Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

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Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby SteinOnkel » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:46 pm

Hello everyone,

I have an EDIS Trigger Wheel 36-1 with VR sensor on my crank and am using an OEM VW Hall pickup. The hall pickup has a supply voltage of 5V, however I think the polarity is flipped and that may be the reason I am seeing no cam in the composite logger? I double checked the pots and jumpers and also soldered on a 1K Resistor. Nothing changed :(

Would one of you guys be nice enough to look at my msq and logs and tell me if this is okay, please? I'm a little bit at a loss of what to set in the ignition settings and have just been guessing so far.

Thanks, really appreciate it!
Attachments
2017-09-29_23.31.20.csv
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2017-09-29_23.44.58.msq
(283.57 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby billr » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:34 am

With wasted-spark those TS settings should be good enough that it can start and run well. However, not only is the cam signal missing in the comp log, but the crank signal is wrong. Ignore the cam signal for now, even disconnect the sensor if you want. Are the mainboard pots (R52 and R56) turned fully CCW? Post a tooth-log with the pots set full CCW, let's start with that.
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby SteinOnkel » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:47 am

billr wrote:With wasted-spark those TS settings should be good enough that it can start and run well. However, not only is the cam signal missing in the comp log, but the crank signal is wrong. Ignore the cam signal for now, even disconnect the sensor if you want. Are the mainboard pots (R52 and R56) turned fully CCW? Post a tooth-log with the pots set full CCW, let's start with that.


Hi Bill, thanks for the quick reply!

The pots are turned according to the instructions for the use of hall pickup. So 7 turns in, 2 turns back.

Wait a minute....is the manual talking about setting up hall pickup on page 83 for the main engine speed!? Like as in using ONLY a hall pickup!?!? I was wondering why I need to do things to the mainboard - seeing as the expansion board is where the cam signal goes into!
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby billr » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:15 am

I think you have found your problem. The mainboard pots are only for the CKP sensor; if that is VR then turn both of those full CCW. The MS3X pots are only for the CMP sensor; if that is a Hall type, then the pots are set per the instructions and will not be both full CCW.
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby SteinOnkel » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:45 pm

Hey Bill,

sounds good I will give it a shot tomorrow. Are the pots easy to find on the msx? And do I need to solder in a pull-up anywhere?
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby billr » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:00 pm

The pots on the MS3X are easy to find, and easier to reach than those on the mainboard. If the Hall sensor doesn't have a built-in pull-up it will need one somewhere in that circuit, but that too is very easy. There is one built into the MS3X and you connect it with a push-on jumper at JP7. That jumper is probably already there and you would remove it if you don't want to use that pull-up.
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby SteinOnkel » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:53 pm

Hi Bill,

thanks for the quick reply!

So if I understand this correctly I will need to:

Mainboard:

Turn both pots CCW until they click
Remove Jumpers J1 and JP1
Remove pull-up resistor that I so lovingly soldered on last night :)

MS3X:

Turn both pots 7 turns until they click
Which one do I turn back out 2 rotations?
And do I need to jumper anything on the expansion board? (it will need a pull up but it sounds like the default jumper is good already)

I will try this tomorrow and report back.

Thanks!
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby SteinOnkel » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:12 pm

Well, did all of those things and nothing has changed. Still seeing cam fault, no cam signal at all and the trigger logger looks exactly the same.

Any ideas?

Update:

So for funsies I decided to put all the fuses in and started it. It runs!?!?! Albeit barely. Sounds like it's running on 3 Cylinders.
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby billr » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:55 pm

I'm short on time right now, but verify that you have an MS3 with the MS3X expander, and tell me if the mainboard is V3.0 (through-hole) or V3.57 (SMD). It sounds like you may have removed jumpers from the mainboard that are needed (if it is V3.57). Post a current tooth-log and comp log, too. If it fired and ran, even briefly, post an MSL.
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby SteinOnkel » Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:21 pm

Hi Bill,

here is what I bought:

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/meg ... assembled/

Please find attached the tooth logger datalog. Looks good to me - yes there is a bit of variance but that is because I built the trigger wheel myself and well, I am to Backyard mechanics what Paris Hilton is to brain surgeons!

The car runs surprisingly well - I'm having a bit of trouble getting a proper idle speed (I like to see 900RPM) without the AFRs going to 19:1. I only have a set screw on my (unblanced) ITBs. But it currently putting at 1400 RPM. It runs a bit rough - but it stays on and has no problems getting to operating temperature. And I'd be lying if I understood how to tune a VE table. Is there any way to disable it and just use the AFR table? That one makes much more sense to me.

I don't understand HOW it's running without a cam signal though. I will beep out the MS3X connector and make sure I have a good connection to the ECU.
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ToothLogger_10_01_615.csv
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby billr » Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:56 pm

The CKP tooth-log looks good, so I assume you have the proper jumpers back on the mainboard J1 and JP1.

That missing-tooth crank wheel provides all the info needed for an engine to run quite well, as long as you are using wasted-spark. The CMP sensor could fall off onto the ground and your engine would still keep running!

Idle seems to be the trickiest part to tune for many of us. Post a run log (MSL) and the MSQ (if it has changed).

The VE is a major factor in defining what your engine is. I suppose the VE table could be "bypassed" a bit by setting all cells to the same value (like 100, for instance), but then you would have to compensate by setting very weird values in the AFR table. And that is assuming the software would even allow the range of AFR values that you would need. That's a dead-end, with the path paved with frustration. We will help you learn about the VE instead...
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby SteinOnkel » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:56 pm

Hey Bill,

well, that is good news :)

I would post a run log - if I had bothered to save one. And I would make one right now - if my 3 month old $40 coolant hose had not burst. So tired of Made in China junk.

I will fix the coolant hose and report back with a run log.

In the meantime, I will be studying up on VE Tables. Also, I noticed that I REALLY have to jab the throttle for the engine to rev faster. A slow touch of the throttle and it will simply go lean, sputter and rattle. Pretty sure this is a tuning issue.

Thanks!
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby billr » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:52 pm

Before you get started tuning it, I urge you to set the "req_fuel" to the calculated value. Also, if your fuel isn't "pure" gasoline, more something like E10, then be sure to use the stoich ratio for your intended fuel in the req_fuel calculation. Ideally, you should flow the injectors for flow rate and dead-time using your injector drivers and fuel system; but at least use the req_fuel value as calculated from the nominal flow value that you have.
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby SteinOnkel » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:23 am

billr wrote:Before you get started tuning it, I urge you to set the "req_fuel" to the calculated value. Also, if your fuel isn't "pure" gasoline, more something like E10, then be sure to use the stoich ratio for your intended fuel in the req_fuel calculation. Ideally, you should flow the injectors for flow rate and dead-time using your injector drivers and fuel system; but at least use the req_fuel value as calculated from the nominal flow value that you have.


Hi Bill,

what would be the stoich ratio for E10 (which is what I am using). 14.5?

Also, as far as the injectors are concerned I contacted Factory Pro and they said they flow 98ml every 20 seconds at 43 psi. My engine according to Witch Performance calculator requires about 229cc/min. So with 28 PSI I should be getting 234cc and that's what I typed into TS to get the req_fuel. Is that the correct way of doing it?

Also I noticed that my idle surges because my rising rate FPR knocks the pressure down to 20PSI. When I disconnect and plug the FPR's vacuum port the idle stays constant. Still too high, but constant.

Then I hooked up vacuum gauges to the individual intake runners and got the following falues:

Cyl1 -0,8bar
Cyl 2 -0,7bar
Cyl 3 -0,6bar
Cyl 4 -0,6bar

I'm thinking my throttle blades aren't perfectly synchronized.
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby billr » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:55 am

I'll take the easy one first... I use 14.2 for the E10 stoic. Your 14.5 may be more correct, since most E10s are just "up to 10% ethanol"; no guarantee of the exact E%

In the MSQ you posted the req_fuel calculates to 10.7msec, using 14.7 and 250cc/min as entered. However, you must have changed that req_fuel to 14.9msec. That is the fundamental issue I was noting. Regardless of what stoic, injector flow, and engine config you enter, let the "calculation" run and use that number unchanged from then on.

Now, the flow rate we must discuss. You have mentioned several different numbers: 250cc (in the MSQ), 294cc (98/20sec), 229, and 234. Add in the non-standard fuel pressure, and then disconnecting the FPR manifold reference, and we are well "into the weeds" here!

Generally, the FPR reference must be connected. With ITBs getting a stable manifold pressure may be tricky, but there are ways to do that that others here have discussed in other threads often.

As to injector flow rate, there is almost no substitute for flowing them with your actual injector drivers and fuel pressure. Trying to extrapolate 3-bar flow rates to a different pressure only compounds the problem. I recommend flowing all injectors for both rate and dead-time, but rate is really easy to do and dead-time a bit trickier. At least do a quickie check for rate on one injector.
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby SteinOnkel » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:57 am

Hi Bill,

I agree on the well into the weeds part.

Last night I was able to get my idle out of those weeds. The throttle blades were not synched and half the engine wanted to be at 3000rpm. It is now happily idling at 14.7:1 and 950rpm with the lights on :)

So that's good.

As for the manifold vacuum on ITBs, I went all out and built a vacuum manifold for all four runners + two big hoses for the brake booster. It also has a check valve.

I will flow the injectors tonight and report back.

The whole issue of how fuel pressure effects flow rate is something I am still having trouble understanding. Many moons ago at the beginning of the build I posted on facebook in my car groups and nobody was really able to answer my question.

Right now the issue is that as soon as I touch the throttle the engine sputters and goes full lean.

Crawl, walk, run.

Thanks!
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby billr » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:26 am

Do you want me to babble on some more about fuel pressure now?
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby SteinOnkel » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:21 pm

Hi guys,

sorry I have been AWOL. Needed a few weeks away from the project to start up with fresh eyes.

I have double checked the wiring to the cam sensor (hall sensor, OEM). It is correct. I have also determined that it needs a pull up resistor, so I have a jumper on jp7 of the ms3x. I have turned the pots 5x ccw and R11 2x cw. I am still not seeing a cam signal in the composite logger. It is completely absent.

Please find attached my current msq and datalog. I took the car for a little spin today. Runs pretty well, but the throttle is super jerky. I will need to investigate as to why that is.

Also, I connected my brake booster and that made vacuum signals go hay wire. The way I have it connected now is as follows:

Cylinder 1, 2 and 3 feed the FPR and MAP. MAP sensor has a manifold between the ECU and engine. Cylinder 4 feeds the brake booster. Seems to be okay now. Unless you pump the brakes like a mad man (effectively shutting cylinder 4 on and off) the engine does not care one iota what the brake booster is doing.

So. Need to tackle "cam fault" and the jerky throttle and then it's either a whole lot of road tuning or a tuning session on the dyno. I'm getting quotes for $1,500...

Cheers and thanks!
Steiny

P.S: Is there any way to make the datalog file smaller? It's saying max upload size is 1MB :(
Attachments
2017-10-19_21.17.46.msq
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby billr » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:36 am

Again, I'll tackle the "easy one"...

In MLV there is a feature to prune out (delete) sections of a log that are long-and-boring steady-state or otherwise of little interest. I have only tried that feature briefly, and it didn't seem too intuitive to me, but others use it so it must work; just don't get frustrated at first.

My gut feeling is you are going to have other problems in the future using 3 cylinders for the MAP and just one for the brake booster. There have been quite a few threads regarding how to smooth out rough MAP signals (think Harley-Davidson 45 deg V2...); I recommend that you eventually get all cylinders in play for the MAP and booster. How about a PCV valve, is that in this picture too?
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Re: Settings for 36-1 and OEM Hall Pickup (no cam signal)

Postby SteinOnkel » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:47 pm

billr wrote:Again, I'll tackle the "easy one"...

In MLV there is a feature to prune out (delete) sections of a log that are long-and-boring steady-state or otherwise of little interest. I have only tried that feature briefly, and it didn't seem too intuitive to me, but others use it so it must work; just don't get frustrated at first.

My gut feeling is you are going to have other problems in the future using 3 cylinders for the MAP and just one for the brake booster. There have been quite a few threads regarding how to smooth out rough MAP signals (think Harley-Davidson 45 deg V2...); I recommend that you eventually get all cylinders in play for the MAP and booster. How about a PCV valve, is that in this picture too?


Hi Bill,

I will look into the MLV pruning.

PCV has the OEM oil seperator and then a *ahem* non-eco friendly venting system, i.e. an open air filter.

As far as the hardware for the vacuum signals go I have the following:

Cyl 1-4 have small ports on the ITBs, one each except cylinder 2 has 2. On Cylinders 3 and 4 there are big ports for the brake booster. I have tried every combination I can think of and to no avail. Every combo except the one I have now and you press the brake pedal hard once at idle and as soon as you release the idle hunts and eventually the car dies. Having the brake booster and FPR interfere with each other is like having a cat and a mouse in the same room.

What I haven't tried is using dampeners in the "sensitive" lines, such as the one to the FPR and to the MAP. The Brake booster has a one way check-valve.

I have some questions about the cam signal. Could a settings issue result in not having any cam signal in the composite log? Or do I have symptoms of a hardware issue? And also in normal running mode, should I be able to see the cam AND crank signal in the composite logger? Or do both only show up in "log cam & crank mode"?
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