explain tuning theory to me...

[Imdominant]

Ok I'll start by saying my setup is a 5.3LS twin turbo full sequential, COP install. Ms3 v3.57 with MS3X option.

Ok, so let me preface this by saying my vehicle now starts runs and drives good, hot or cold and makes boost fine (i havent exceeded 5-8 psi however because of weak trans reasons). I havent ever gotten obsessive with the tune but its time i start before pushing it a bit further and what time is better but over the winter?

Ok so ive decided to revisit my tune so i saved the msq i have, first of all. Next i turned off EGO correction and went to turn off accel enrichment and i had forgot , I DONT HAVE ANY! thats right i dont even have any and it drives great. But what has always looked "off" too me is how as my afr path is taken up and across the ve map the values are HIGH. as high or higher than they are when im under boost. my main concern is WOT so ive paid closer attention to the afr in a straight horizontal line with a slight incline as it goes 90 kpa and up into boost say 150kpa.

When i go wot , however people tell me that its "rich as hell" because there is an appearance of black smoke behind the vehicle. so this has caused me to go BACK and look at the wot afr logs and they simply do not look bad rich by any means for the amount of boost. i see soot come out of my exhaust upon first startup (and then only) and at times it does smell rich but it drives fine. i am wondering if this soot is building up in the exhaust during the driving around i do, and it gets "blown out" when im really moving air in boost and putting it into the air?

So, i am thinking maybe my method of tuning was so far off that ive caused this? I turn off AE and EGO correction.. then i turn on Veal and drive around trying to do mostly very small movements of throttle to maintain rpm and then very slowly creep up to another rpm, then another... then i slow down and shift and do a different gear hoping to place different loads onto the engine. So then i do 3rd gear and then i do the same with the brakes applied some to load it further. After this i drive the car and place it in different scenarios, part throttle snaps full throttle snaps everything i can throw at it and let veal do its thing. at first i didnt do this, but without a load bearing dyno how could i tune those areas of the map without? and when its done i have a perfectly driveable ve map. I am *NOT* saying this is right but i need a logical way to approach this that will land me at the correct end result.... please give me a correct tuning approach

[Imdominant]

I should probably add that i only use general engine knowledge to setup afr targets and the ignition map.. I dont have a knock sensor implemented into the combo as of yet but i HAVE used a piston stop to find tdc and then a timing light to check for timing offset.

I have also used an egt to tune for the hottest idle i could which should be stoich, and my wideband o2 reads this as 14.6-14.8 so i feel like its working correctly... I dont intend to leave it there because idle egt is pretty hot at temp (800*F @ 180-190 coolant temps) and thats not necessarily the highest vaccuum, i was just using egt to verify scaling of o2.

And for those that might wonder i didnt flow test the injectors, but i did use the published info to great detail in the injector setup (which helped me a lot) and my idle pw is a little less than 2.0ms

i will import a msq soon

[Imdominant]

msq

rich.msq

[yzn]

Can you post a datalog?
I suggest to keep EGO Correction and accel enrichment ON when using veal

[Imdominant]

Sure thing. I believe i had EGO on during this one. Veal as well.

As far as me running AE during Veal, what sort of ae curve should i start with? I thought about doing some low load Veal, and then set the ae curve to rev pretty good and snappy, leave it there and go drive ... but i dont know and im waiting on any and all advice!!!

data.zip

It was about 1.5mb so i just zipped it

[yzn]

If you look at ve table in the 3D view it should be smooth but yours have big bumps try to smooth it and then do more drive with veal after that look at the datalog to find any problems fix that and do another drive, there should be a smooth translation on how the ve number goes from low to high.
There is a good explanation on how to tune the AE in the setting manual

[Imdominant]

I brought down all the rich values and pretty much started over, established AE and drove around some with ego on and veal on as well.. here is a sample of where it is now.. any advice is appreciated.

tune2.msq

data2.zip

[yzn]

Try to match the AFR with AFR target table, this will help you after you finish your VE table and then you decide to target a another afr value at a certain area so you will only need to change the AFR target table without retuning the VE table. As in your previous post you said the engine idle around 14.7 but you seems to Target a 15.5 afr in the afr target table. And i thing a 38 deg timing advance at idle is high. From where did you get your Spark advance table?
Looking at your log i would add another row at 45 and 55 kPa this looks where you spend more time than 80-90 kPa area.
Also i would turn off EGO correction at boost and above 70% TPS and use a lower control auth and ignition event per step, or turn off EGO for the first few drive to get a better ve table.
Another good idea is to look at datalog with the following fields: afr, afr target and ve1 with the addition to the usual fields rpm, map and tps. This will help you where you found an area where the afr is 13.6 but your target afr is 14 and the ve1 was 70 so multiplying this ve1 by 0.97 (13.6/14=0.97). Actually what i did is made a custom field in megalogviewer with following formula : ([AFR]/[AFR Target 1])*[VE1] this exactly what i describe above but it gave the suggested VE value without doing the calculation, but keep your eye on when accel happen so you don't accidentally use it in the calculation, you can also use this in scatter plot.

[Red_bull]

Can you post a datalog?
I suggest to keep EGO Correction and accel enrichment ON when using veal

Why do you suggest this? EGO correction is not taken into account by VEAL as far as i know? Also AE will ruin the VEAL run isn't it? I have done mine without EGO and AE

Besides why wouldn't you give EGO correction a small auth on boost? Like few % It can correct for small mistakes for example on IAT correction that fails. I understand that there is a risk, but can be helpfull aswell. But yea i wouldn't also give it 10%

[nathanhardy]

i dont want to steal this thread but how do you use the info from that formula? you setup in megalog veiwer

[yzn]

Can you post a datalog?
I suggest to keep EGO Correction and accel enrichment ON when using veal

Why do you suggest this? EGO correction is not taken into account by VEAL as far as i know? Also AE will ruin the VEAL run isn't it? I have done mine without EGO and AE

Besides why wouldn't you give EGO correction a small auth on boost? Like few % It can correct for small mistakes for example on IAT correction that fails. I understand that there is a risk, but can be helpfull aswell. But yea i wouldn't also give it 10%

From tunerstudio help menu it said that veal is designed to work with Accel and ego correction on, from the last line in the help topics :
(Note: VE Analyze was designed to use with controller settings left as you would normally drive the car. Typically it is recommended that Accel Enrichment and and ego correction settings are left on unless you do not use them under normal circumstances.)
Also when i first start using veal i first end up with ve table looking like his ve table, a high ve number in low and mid rpm.
I think ego correction should be used for cruise area,as you should depend on a good tuned VE table under boost.

i dont want to steal this thread but how do you use the info from that formula? you setup in megalog veiwer

Actually i used it when tuning on the dyno when holding at certain cell to make it faster to calculate the correct ve number for this cell. You can also use it in the datalog by looking at areas where the load was steady using fields like VE1,VE1 suggested(that's what i have named it), afr, afr target1 and Fuel:total cor. Also make the VE1 and VE1 suggested having the same max and min number help when you look at the graph they should be close to each other if your AFR match your AFR target table.

[Red_bull]

Can you post a datalog?
I suggest to keep EGO Correction and accel enrichment ON when using veal

Why do you suggest this? EGO correction is not taken into account by VEAL as far as i know? Also AE will ruin the VEAL run isn't it? I have done mine without EGO and AE

Besides why wouldn't you give EGO correction a small auth on boost? Like few % It can correct for small mistakes for example on IAT correction that fails. I understand that there is a risk, but can be helpfull aswell. But yea i wouldn't also give it 10%

From tunerstudio help menu it said that veal is designed to work with Accel and ego correction on, from the last line in the help topics :
(Note: VE Analyze was designed to use with controller settings left as you would normally drive the car. Typically it is recommended that Accel Enrichment and and ego correction settings are left on unless you do not use them under normal circumstances.)
Also when i first start using veal i first end up with ve table looking like his ve table, a high ve number in low and mid rpm.
I think ego correction should be used for cruise area,as you should depend on a good tuned VE table under boost.

Strange i have read somewhere that it would mess up VEAL which makes sense, but what you descripe sounds a bit like my VE table. I have to have a look into this