E85 Tuning Headaches

Tuning concepts, methods, tips etc.

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techsalvager
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Re: E85 Tuning Headaches

Post by techsalvager »

I see now where I was wrong and see what the issue is.
apologizes for all the misunderstandings.
MS2extra
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Panoles1
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Re: E85 Tuning Headaches

Post by Panoles1 »

Thanks guys. I'm fairy confident at this time that the problem is NOT req fuel... This all started after I updated the firmware to the current 3.2.1 (?). At that time I took it for a quick spin, all seemed ok. Then I drained the gasoline added the E85 and entered the required fuel. Within 5 minutes, I had to start making significant increases to my VE table to compensate.

I'm going to reflash the MS just in case something did not take properly. A few settings that I notice are different from what I had prior to the firmware update. I'm being told they are NOT causing my issue. I guess I'm asking then why were they set that way before and now are not relevant since I made other changes to my squirt!?
elutionsdesign
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Re: E85 Tuning Headaches

Post by elutionsdesign »

Just a thought, are you feeling misfires when it reads lean? A wide band sees all misfires as lean since you didn't consume the O2 in the cylinder that gets pushed to the exhaust and read as lean.
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I build, repair, install and tune Megasquirt systems in North Dakota and beyond!
Panoles1
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Re: E85 Tuning Headaches

Post by Panoles1 »

elutionsdesign wrote:Just a thought, are you feeling misfires when it reads lean? A wide band sees all misfires as lean since you didn't consume the O2 in the cylinder that gets pushed to the exhaust and read as lean.
No, not really. I'm convinced something occurred when I upgraded the firmware from my old try and trued 2.25/2.1.X code... Some setting possibly was missed.

I've since started another thread in the MSextra forum as a general "lean" condition tune. I've verified that all sensors are calibrated and working correctly. I replaced my fuel pump (which only had 2K on it), fuel pressure regulator, filter, etc. and the issue remains the same.
billr
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Re: E85 Tuning Headaches

Post by billr »

Your WUE scheme looks odd to me... you never get out of WU, which is set to cut fueling to "40%". Using WUE for tuning, instead of just the VE, just makes it more confusing.
Panoles1
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Re: E85 Tuning Headaches

Post by Panoles1 »

billr wrote:Your WUE scheme looks odd to me... you never get out of WU, which is set to cut fueling to "40%". Using WUE for tuning, instead of just the VE, just makes it more confusing.
Though I've been running MS for a few years.. I'm very green with setting. How do I adj and turn off or adj the WUE and yes, I see that it is always running via the light in TS... Sorry to sound like a dumb @$$ but in this environment, I truly am!
billr
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Re: E85 Tuning Headaches

Post by billr »

To get out of WUE just make the last temperature cell (lowest position in the table) lower than the temp of the engine when warmed up; something like 170-190F. The bigger issue is the low percentages you have set, that last one should be 100% and all above should be higher than 100. If you do that, then your VE map will be all off, but the VE is what should be "tuned", not WUE or req_fuel or MAT.
Panoles1
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Re: E85 Tuning Headaches

Post by Panoles1 »

billr wrote: The bigger issue is the low percentages you have set, that last one should be 100% and all above should be higher than 100. If you do that, then your VE map will be all off, but the VE is what should be "tuned", not WUE or req_fuel or MAT.
Are you referring to the %'s in the WUE or....?

Thanks for your help BTW, I will make those changes and any other suggested changes when I get home!
billr
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Re: E85 Tuning Headaches

Post by billr »

Yes, the WUE % values should all be 100 or more; you have values down in the 40s, which causes an "enleanment". Changing the last cell to 100% will make everything richer, so be ready for that! Do you have the "req_fuel" set to the correctly calculated value, no faking it?

Edit: I would also set the MAT values for "real physics"; set the correction table all to 0 and the correction value to 100. There has been discussion about this recently, and I know some will disagree, but I would have to know a real reason for differing from the normal reality of our atmosphere...
Panoles1
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Re: E85 Tuning Headaches

Post by Panoles1 »

billr wrote:Yes, the WUE % values should all be 100 or more; you have values down in the 40s, which causes an "enleanment". Changing the last cell to 100% will make everything richer, so be ready for that! Do you have the "req_fuel" set to the correctly calculated value, no faking it?

Edit: I would also set the MAT values for "real physics"; set the correction table all to 0 and the correction value to 100. There has been discussion about this recently, and I know some will disagree, but I would have to know a real reason for differing from the normal reality of our atmosphere...

OK, I'm a little confused by changing the % to 100 or more. I thought you said I need to have WUE turn off at the last cell. In my fuzzy logic, I'm thinking that number should go to "0", as in warm enough so add no more extra fuel for the purposes of warm up assisted fuel adder... If I increase those %, does it not pull further from the VE, thus creating a leaner VE cell?

Yes, I have the req fuel set accurately (even used the online calculators for the base fuel pressure and injector flow rate (1000cc) and 14.7 for gasoline or 9.7 for E-85.

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billr
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Re: E85 Tuning Headaches

Post by billr »

Yeah, it was kind of confusing to me too. WUE is not a value that is added to calculated fuel PW, it is a value that PW (actually the "req_fuel" factor) is multiplied by. So 100% WUE means that factor is 1, no changes for WU; 150% would mean 1.5x as much fuel as after WU. Note that the MAT factor is similar, 100% means multiply MAT correction by 1, but the MAT table values are additive; 0 there means "use measured MAT and real physics". Anything else there adds or subtracts from theoretical MAT corrections and should only be used if there is a problem with the MAT sensor readings that can't be corrected any other way.
Panoles1
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Re: E85 Tuning Headaches

Post by Panoles1 »

billr wrote:Yeah, it was kind of confusing to me too. WUE is not a value that is added to calculated fuel PW, it is a value that PW (actually the "req_fuel" factor) is multiplied by. So 100% WUE means that factor is 1, no changes for WU; 150% would mean 1.5x as much fuel as after WU. Note that the MAT factor is similar, 100% means multiply MAT correction by 1, but the MAT table values are additive; 0 there means "use measured MAT and real physics". Anything else there adds or subtracts from theoretical MAT corrections and should only be used if there is a problem with the MAT sensor readings that can't be corrected any other way.

Bill, I think the changes you suggested and I made, are indeed a large part of the issue. It started up VERY rich and flattened out nicely with a idle AFR of 12.1-13.0, which is a far cry what I had. I didn't get a chance to go out last nite, but hope to do some this evening.

I'll report back with datalogs.
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