Why does a lot tuners hate MS

[jsmcortina]

Deviant,
All very true.
I still struggle to understand how users miss out MSQs. I've even made it such that new users on the forum get an additional big load of text explaining stuff !

I am working on updating the MS2 docs, hopefully there will be a draft version of some of it available in the next week or so.

James

[Xnke]

To one of the previous posters:

Yes, the MS2-extra documentation IS that bad. It's not that it isn't thorough, but just that things are constantly changing and so the documentation is constantly outdated...this has lead to the documentation being ignored and it's fallen into a huge mess. New hastily written incomplete pages here and there, to satisfy users who already knew how to use certain features, old outdated pages that explain well how to do something that is no longer supported in that method, or simply no longer works that way at all.

The main reason for this is MS3 and 3X...this new flagship product is pulling a lot of the developers time and attention, and so the MS2E codebase will benefit a little but the documentation will suffer greatly.

Look at the MS1-E documentation...there is quite a lot more of it and the features and methods have not changed since it was written, for 90% of the features and options. The tuning software is relatively well defined and the terms used are not cryptic and nondescript. It just works the way that the documentation says it works. The field names are (mostly) easily understood, even when you get into some of the more advanced features.

For example...idle control with MS1E, PWM valve. There are a stack of fields to put values in...and they make sense from and ENGINE CONTROL standpoint. Things like Idle Target RPM, then the hot and cold idle targets...it's a simple question, it needs a simple answer. It's not really accurate control, but it is easy to set up and make work.

Now, look at MS2E's PWM idle control settings...four different pages and two different graphical tables and not one field that asks "what is your desired idle speed under normal operating conditions?" Yes, one table does have RPM's listed on the vertical axis, but reading through the documentation those tables are not mentioned, nor is there any explanation on their use or meaning. The names of some of the variables don't make sense from an ENGINE control standpoint, but instead from an IDLE VALVE control standpoint...which I understand...you're controlling the valve...but the end user wants to control the ENGINE.

Using adaptations of the variable name helps the developers, but it does not help the users at all. Now the users must become developers in order to communicate effectively! Even looking in the glossary isn't helpful most of the time now, because it's so outdated compared to the feature list.

Don't take this the wrong way...I'm frustrated with MS2E but it's mostly because I do not know how to use what I'm working with. I had this same car, same mainboard, same wiring harness, running perfectly fine with MS1E for three years with nary a hiccup...now I have issues with electrical noise, configuration problems that vanish and reappear, and inconsistencies that *seem* to be codebase-related, but I can't tell because I can't find the answers in the documentation, and they don't work or even look the same as the MS1E counterpart.

On another note, I know that writing documentation is difficult for most developers and it's really no fun compared to actually working with the product. When I work on stuff at my job, sometimes I have to prepare manuals and it really is a dreaded thing, and I'm not even writing them! just putting it all together in a manner that makes sense to someone who doesn't need to know how every gear turns, but instead just needs to know how to USE those gears, really gets difficult.

Being an engine "developer" after working hours, I end up building a lot of hardware; and there are a lot of times I have to recommend against MS because I know the customer isn't going to take the time or have the patience to work it out, and they aren't going to pay decent money to install a system that "only costs 500$".

It's like one of the security/fire panels I install at work...so many options to enable or disable, so many ways to do things, they can do anything and everything...but when you only need it to do three things it can take hours to get it configured, and you'll STILL always miss something, no matter how many of those dang panels you install.

[Matt Cramer]

Bumping this thread has brought out a number of interesting suggestions. We've had a lot going on here - a snow storm, hiring some new people, a few other things that have kept me (or Jerry) from responding sooner.

Could the DIYAutoTune.com website use an overhaul? Yes. We're pricing our options out. The plans wouldn't just be new looks; there's a lot of back end features to the shopping cart that would make life easier for our shipping department. Sure, it would be nice to have a website of the same caliber as, say, Summit Racing, but I'm not sure that will be in the budget. In the meantime, we're hiring a new tech support person and our plan is to start his training by assigning him to overhaul any tech articles that have gotten out of date. (If anyone would like to call out articles he needs to deal with urgently, let me know!)

Marek's label idea is a good one. These labels would need to be unique for each custom built ECU. We might also have a separate version of the label for homemade units. That would help me with one of the most dreaded emails we get: the ones that begin with, "I just bought a used MegaSquirt, and..."

Some notes on out of date sections of the manuals. If you see something on the MSExtra.com documentation that needs updating, please start a thread about it, with a link to the specific section and details about what is out of date. The more specific you can make it, the better. James has been going through them a lot lately and adding revisions, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you see something that needs a fix... start squeaking.

We have a couple MegaSquirt videos up already. They are a bit time consuming and expensive to make; we are planning to expand on this collection soon, though. The videos will probably be made in house at DIYAutoTune, but there are a couple companies that specialize in automotive videos that we are considering partnering with.

The MS2 interface received a much better organizing scheme with the 3.3.x codebase. If you're on 3.2.5 or earlier, upgrading will get you a big jump there.

We get a lot of requests for base maps. Unfortunately, what the base maps are for tends to be all over the place. I've had customers ask for base maps for an Austin Mini, a DeLorean, and... well, you get the picture. Companies like Holley or FAST that concentrate on one market segment can have a very small collection of base maps that fit 90% of their users; our installation base is a bit too diversified for that.

[JoseMiguel]

Matt, im willing to help on your website and tech articles, also anything regarding this community, I emailed you in the past (im overseas which makes things a bit difficult) but I really like the MS project and im always in the best mood to help...

Helping is also a way for me to learn!

[subwoofer]

Good to hear that something is about to happen wrt your web site, it is somewhat overdue IMHO.

We get a lot of requests for base maps. Unfortunately, what the base maps are for tends to be all over the place. I've had customers ask for base maps for an Austin Mini, a DeLorean, and... well, you get the picture. Companies like Holley or FAST that concentrate on one market segment can have a very small collection of base maps that fit 90% of their users; our installation base is a bit too diversified for that.

I have a suggestion in this respect: When MS3 1.3 is released, MAF support is all of a sudden very good. If you were to add a selection of MAFs to your product line, you could use a flow bench and produce transfer functions for these. Since TunerStudio has the capability to load maps and settings for individual sections, you could then provide .msqpart files for each of them, and a selection of MAFload based ignition curves for various typical engine topologies. Think 2-valve Hemi, high comp bowl-in-piston, low-comp bowl-in piston, 2-valve wedge, 4-valve pent-roof etc, all on the safe side naturally. When (or if...) the customer does his homework in terms of setting engine constants and injector characteristics, you could actually have a very good set of base maps with relatively little effort.

As you may have understood, I really like the concept of MAFs. There is a reason more or less all OEMs use them, even though they are expensive. If speed density was just as good, the OEM would not allow the extra expense, just like Ford saves 50 cents per car by not having a nut on the clamp bolts on the front shocks on McPherson suspensions.

I also like the direction the hardware has taken lately with the Microsquirt and MS3Pro, both in packaged and module form. The packaged units for those who just needs something that works, and modules for the 5-10% that have special needs or feel like experimenting. I honestly don't see that there could be much value in terms of business with the traditional kits, and the business model could possibly do with a revision. The firmware is such a large part of the package that I think paying the developers for it at purchase is the correct way to do it rather than relying on donations.

My two bits in the bucket...

[Xnke]

I think the MAF support is a good idea, but you can't just give out flow curves for MAF sensors and expect safe tunes. The inlet and exit piping going into the sensor matters almost as much as the actual sensor curve...so you'd be stuck to a tune for a specific car with a specific MAF. It really does make a LOT of difference on different cars, something I learned when I had a hard time getting mine to run properly on MAF. I really do like the MAF for tuning though...it is sooooo smooth once the curve gets set correctly. And, once you have a set curve for your installation in your car, as long as don't run out of MAF headroom then tuning for more power is a snap...if it's even needed!

I will go through this weekend if I can get some free time and make notes of what sections of the MS2-E manuals need updating, a lot of it is just so outdated. Most of the manual pages were written for a 2.8X revision, I think, or even earlier some places. Some pages are fully up to date!

[subwoofer]

I think the MAF support is a good idea, but you can't just give out flow curves for MAF sensors and expect safe tunes. The inlet and exit piping going into the sensor matters almost as much as the actual sensor curve...so you'd be stuck to a tune for a specific car with a specific MAF. It really does make a LOT of difference on different cars, something I learned when I had a hard time getting mine to run properly on MAF.
!

A lot has changed over the last 6 months, with the fully integrating code now in 1.3 I think you'll find the piping to matter less, at least if there are a few inches of straight tubing before an after.

Tuning for MAF with the old single sample code was very difficult indeed.

[Xnke]

it's not just MS2/E or MS3 that have issues with MAF placement...most factory ECU's do as well. Changing the code doesn't change the airflow behavior through the sensor.

[Matt Cramer]

Matt, im willing to help on your website and tech articles, also anything regarding this community, I emailed you in the past (im overseas which makes things a bit difficult) but I really like the MS project and im always in the best mood to help...

Helping is also a way for me to learn!

The biggest help you can provide is to flag what sections need updating, with a link and notes about where the out of date / unclear sections are. If it's the DIYAutoTune.com site, you can email us at websales@diyautotune.com; for the MSExtra.com docs, post a thread here. If you like, you can also come up with proposed alternate wording, illustrations, or anything else that would help clear up the articles.

[knightrous]

I think any documentation more MS2/3 that shows MegaTune images needs updated, it instantly adds an uncertainty to a new comer as what they have in front of them looks very different to the documentation.

[E4ODnut]

Megasquirt has evolved to be something a lot bigger and a lot more than B&G probably envisioned it to be. I have the utmost respect and admiration for the author, or authors of the Megamanual. It contains a wealth of information and it is an excellent resource. The problem is that it now covers so much material that it has become somewhat cumbersome, almost intimidating to some.

Add to this the fact that there are several current variants. MS1, MS2, MS1-Extra, MS2-Extra and MS3 which all have their own documentation, sort of.

Then there is the documentation for the tuning software. There is some documentation on Tuner Studio, and still some that reference Megatune, possibly even Megatunix. Trying to get the current information on the particular MS variant, and the tuning software one is using can get quite convoluted.

If a user has a question, the answer can usually be found if enough time is spent looking through all the documentation on any of the MS related web sites. This is a huge task, beyond the patience of most, and does nothing to promote any MS product as being "user friendly".

Accurate up to date documentation under these conditions is extremely time consuming, and therefore expensive, but it is also extremely important for the end user. MS is now a commercial enterprise. To solicit input from users as to how the documentation could be improved on would provide good information for the authors, but the bottom line is that the documentation could use a major overhaul and the people who are best qualified to do this are the people are in charge now.

My suggestion would be to break it up into separate documentation for each MS variant, with accompanying documentation for whatever tuning software is available for that variant. The principals and theory are all very valuable and should be included, but only for the features that are available for that particular variant. In that way, a user has only one very comprehensive and specific manual to reference for his particular variant and tuning software. Any user configurable screen that comes up on the tuning software should have corresponding documentation. There should be no need to research any of the other sites to answer a question specific to his variant and tuning software.

This is not a small task, but it is probably the inevitable price of growth and popularity.

[kjones6039]

I got no complaints about my little skinny MS manual............

99 Manual.jpg

This is ONE manual, even though it looks like 3!

[subwoofer]

With respect to organizing the docs, have a look at this for inspiration:

https://confluence.atlassian.com/displa ... ation+Home

There is one set of docs "in progress" at all times which is published at beta release time. All documentation stems from the same source, and is simply tagged at version release time. Atlassian products, like MS, evolve rather quickly, so the problem of the map not matching the terrain would appear immediately if one tried to cover all versions in the same set of docs. I am not suggesting this for previously released versions, building that tree of documents would be prohibitive, but rather as a way forward - out of the currently messy situation.

Another observation is that developers in general write lousy user documentation. They should write behind-the-scenes technical documentation and leave the user docs to someone with better communication skills.

The B&G/MSExtra/DIYautotune/EFIanalytics conglomerate should also sit down and decide on an obsolesence strategy, I believe there are too many versions in production causing unnecessary support and attracting a crowd of high-maintenance cheepskates. This may not be a popular view, I know.

[nuvolarossa]

Well all the big MS problems have already been explained in previous posts...

about documentation:
IMHO you need some kind of cms for the manual and main website(product presentation etc)... there are a lot.
(Well if it was me these days I would drop phpbb3 too to have a fully integrated website, but that means big $$$$$ )

Static pages, doing all links etc now that manual is getting big, is and will be a pita for you (I guess).
With a cms you could tag pages with version numbers,drafts,publish/unpublish if not ready etc. easy to edit even for non pc friendly people(wysiwyg). just with a click and mass edit too if needed.
It will be a pain to migrate/learn the new system but it will be worth in the long run.

there should even be user comments/suggestions under each manual page, that could help you to better rewrite the docs, when you see people complaining and not understanding always the same thing.
I guess then some noobs would post msq problems there a permission system to allow only experienced or trusted users to post reviews would solve that.
Lots can be done with a cms, not worth going with a custom one from scratch. There are some good open source ones and some integrate with phpbb3 too.
Some easier but less functions, some way more grainy but steep learning curve.

Building websites and building megasquirts have lots of similarities.

[Matt Cramer]

I think any documentation more MS2/3 that shows MegaTune images needs updated, it instantly adds an uncertainty to a new comer as what they have in front of them looks very different to the documentation.

If you spot any sections with them, can you post a link?

[jsmcortina]

I think any documentation more MS2/3 that shows MegaTune images needs updated, it instantly adds an uncertainty to a new comer as what they have in front of them looks very different to the documentation.

If you spot any sections with them, can you post a link?

Don't for MS2 though! I'm rewriting that section anyway, so won't be updating the old web page manual.

James

[Manu]

Hello,

If I can help => I'm a French dealer of MS products (http://boutique.fenixecu.com). I use to work with Matt.

While I lead a MS French forum (http://forum.fenixecu.com/megasquirt/), it's common to get users that not read it

But focus on the topic : why tuner hate MS. In France tuners starts with a brand (Skynam) a long time ago. They don't want to learn a new ECU. I have convert some and continue to do this but there is severals points that are always told :
- ECU case and connector is not 'automotive' => I now sell them µMS
- TS is in English and the translation is really really poor !!! (Renix 44.2.2 become Estelle ?). THIS is, for non english users, the biggest problem. I saw translations that make think that you use rising edge but in fact you use falling edge because the transaltion is INVERTED !!!

So I try to make my customers use TS in English, but they won't. Most tuners I work with are extremely good and specialized mecanicians, nothing else. They don't want to learn a new language to make an engine work. I try to fill Phil with a descent French Translation, but it's hard to maintain a up-to-date file due to .ini frequently changes... And sometime, even a well translated string given to Phill is re-changed at TS upgrade... So I believe that if you want MS become more International, you MUST have a perfect translation. There is no place for "approximation" or non-sense here. When you address to professionnals tuners, a Trigger Wheel is a "Roue Phonique", and nothing else...

That say, when I go to meet a Tuner to propose MS products and after one or two hours of explainations, they want to try the ECU and often then use it for there daily job. But as say before, Tuners LIKE to do the job from the beginning to the end (wiring, first start and tune). Or they like to "get the last horses" when the system is stable. But they don't like to "debug" an installation as it's not really a valuable work... But this is true with all brand of ECU.

The lack a documentation, if there is a lack and I don't think so, is not a problem here, due to language barrier. This finaly can be good for me as what I first sell is => support
i.e. : people can source MS from a wide range of dealers, but some prefer to source from me because they can have someone on the phone when they stuck.

To conclude, MegaSquirt is not a "bad word" here as no one now what can be a squirt...

My 2 bucks ;-)

Best regards,
Manu

[Manu]

My 2 bucks ++ => some tuners won't use MS because it can't drive a throttle-by-wire body

[lagos]

My personal complaint with MS is in the fact that there are 10 different websites that lead to 10 different things.

There is a forum here at msextra.com, but also one at msefi.com (with very old posts)? There is also msruns.com for some reason . what on earth is the difference between all of these?
MSPNP.com takes me to one site, but DIYPNP.com takes me to another...
I could go on and on, but I think the web presence needs to be majorly cleaned up. All of the various URLs need to point to one central site, that has links to the main forums, megamanual, place to download latest firmware, place to buy new products, etc...

I'm sure there once was a logical reason for all of these different websites to exist, but if I tell a new user where to go to learn more about megasquirt, Im not quite sure where to send them. I think this also makes ms look like a confusing product use, when in fact it is not.

[The Deviant]

My personal complaint with MS is in the fact that there are 10 different websites that lead to 10 different things.

There is a forum here at msextra.com, but also one at msefi.com (with very old posts)? There is also msruns.com for some reason . what on earth is the difference between all of these?
MSPNP.com takes me to one site, but DIYPNP.com takes me to another...
I could go on and on, but I think the web presence needs to be majorly cleaned up. All of the various URLs need to point to one central site, that has links to the main forums, megamanual, place to download latest firmware, place to buy new products, etc...

I'm sure there once was a logical reason for all of these different websites to exist, but if I tell a new user where to go to learn more about megasquirt, Im not quite sure where to send them. I think this also makes ms look like a confusing product use, when in fact it is not.

When I was first getting started, I had a problem with this as well. "Where do I go for what??" Definitely agree there. That just leads to frustration, and that manifests itself in people "hating" on MS.

- ECU case and connector is not 'automotive' => I now sell them µMS

This is always mentioned - and I just don't get all the hate for DB connector. While I agree - it's not the best connector, and there ARE better connectors - it does what it needs to do - within a nice price point. That perception is addressed in the "Pro" line, and the µ-line (as was mentioned). I just think people want something "sexy" and could care less about how durable/reliable it is. For example, DB connectors are used by Motorola for interconnects on their vehicular public safety/service industrial commercial radio lines (Spectra, et al) - obviously, this stuff is used by police, fire, emergency medical, governmental agencies, and for other "mission critical" communication needs, and they don't seem to have issues with it. Funny how that works, right?