Why does a lot tuners hate MS

[jsmcortina]

My personal complaint with MS is in the fact that there are 10 different websites that lead to 10 different things.

I could go on and on, but I think the web presence needs to be majorly cleaned up.

Some valid points there, I'll pass them on. Thanks.

We've tried to "do our bit" by merging ms3efi into msextra, but that's as far as I can go. (Although perhaps megasquirt.co.uk should just be a redirect to msextra also?)

James

[lagos]

My personal complaint with MS is in the fact that there are 10 different websites that lead to 10 different things.

I could go on and on, but I think the web presence needs to be majorly cleaned up.

Some valid points there, I'll pass them on. Thanks.

We've tried to "do our bit" by merging ms3efi into msextra, but that's as far as I can go. (Although perhaps megasquirt.co.uk should just be a redirect to msextra also?)

James

What's the purpose of megasquirt.co.uk? All of the links point to content from msextra.com with the exception of the UK supplier list. I'm sure that list is very handy for UK members, but why isn't that information just on DIYautotune.com?

DIYautotune.com needs to be one main site that all of these various URls redirect to. You need a central hub for everything.
If i wanted to learn more about AEM ems products, I know to just go to AEMpowered.com and ill find everything I need there. With megasquirt, Its a lot more confusing!

[muythaibxr]

The problem is that DIY is a reseller and licencee of MS tech, not the main company. We can't redirect there. That said, we hear you, and will pass the feedback along.

[jsmcortina]

DIYautotune.com needs to be one main site that all of these various URls redirect to.

Although DIYA are the largest vendor, there are others...

Do consider the "chain of command" of the Megasquirt world:

1. Bowling & Grippo, wholesale and core Megasquirt technology:
MSEXTRA and all the other websites

2. Main retailers:
DIYautotune.com
EFIsource.com
etc.

3. Sub-sellers:
(e.g. buy kits from DIYA and assemble)
Phil Ringwood
etc.

Perhaps that sheds a little light on the situation. However, as Ken says, we are listening.
(PS sellers, if I missed your name out please don't take offence, these are just examples! Although having a formal tree like that with all major retailers listed might help?)

James

[LT401Vette]

- TS is in English and the translation is really really poor !!! (Renix 44.2.2 become Estelle ?). THIS is, for non english users, the biggest problem. I saw translations that make think that you use rising edge but in fact you use falling edge because the transaltion is INVERTED !!!

So I try to make my customers use TS in English, but they won't. Most tuners I work with are extremely good and specialized mecanicians, nothing else. They don't want to learn a new language to make an engine work. I try to fill Phil with a descent French Translation, but it's hard to maintain a up-to-date file due to .ini frequently changes... And sometime, even a well translated string given to Phill is re-changed at TS upgrade... So I believe that if you want MS become more International, you MUST have a perfect translation. There is no place for "approximation" or non-sense here. When you address to professionnals tuners, a Trigger Wheel is a "Roue Phonique", and nothing else...

Interesting. I did not realize you were having trouble with translations getting reverted back. I would imagine that happens when other submit updates and have left old translations in the file, thus it puts back the old changes.
It sounds like I really need to finish the UI component in TS for you to edit the translation directly in TS.

[ol boy]

I vote to keep everything the same... I'm getting a call once a month from people here in Tucson that need help with there systems. After a few hours of explaining the ins and outs of EFI I can get them pointed in the right direction. Some guys have spent lots of money on their projects. Tossing a couple bills my direction once they are up and running helps me and my family out.

The fact is there is alot going on inside and out of the ECU.

[tutuur]

I'd like to post a quite from a very knowledgeable tuner who has worked for f1 teams in his younger years as a reaction on someone slating MS:


Megasquirt is a broad range of Ecus.

And I'm not aware of a plug and play one for the Clio.

The new microsquirt is a very nicely made bit of kit that's capable on a budget.

early home built examples can be ropey as hell and people with no firsthand knowledge of the more modern professionally built units will **** the whole mega squirt name off through ignorance based on that early dodgy beginning for the project.

They are one of the best Ecus available in terms of a decent transient fuelling option for example
though, comparable to OEM stuff of a few years ago and hence they make the other litter at the cheap end of the market like emerald or canems look very outdated and basic indeed.

ive mapped a very wide range of Ecus including stuff at the high end of the market like autronic sm4 etc. and I can honestly say the megasquirt (if it's a professionally built modern unit) can hold it's own with them.

I've currently got ecu's on my various cars of hugely differing price ranges and have a pretty large annual budget to play with cars with compared to most people in the world of clios. So cost isn't an issue to me particularly but an ecu that delivers is.

I can do stuff with a megasquirt with boost control for example that something like an omex 600 for example utterly cannot ever do.
You simply do not know what you are talking about on the subject of megasquirt. Simple as that.

[ifreaknik]

The interface has improved over time and now that I am learning MORE about tuning I have a better knowledge of the fields. However the case maybe layout and overall usability of the unit must become more intuitive. MS should take a Mac approach to tuning instead of a PC approach - Get Great at One Thing!

There are certain things that people look at on a tune and can instantly tell if the car is going to run and etc. The system should be able to the do the same thing. A suggestion wizard and other little things have been over looked for far to long. I get it, not knowing how to use this system keeps a few bucks coming in - I get it but the option of having NO SHOPS support your product just isnt worth it in the long run.

Take this IDEA for theory.
Choose a few sensors with the values already preloaded, add your engine data along with power and drivability goals - VIOLA! You have a temp tune that you can work off and that will run the car like the REQUIRED FUEL CALCULATOR. A few of the graphs and options should work in unison with one another for example - you have to put the Max RPM in about 7 times, just make it once and fill the field automatically.

My 2 cents

[Raymond_B]

Interesting and timely thread for me. I think the end users ultimately drive tuner opinions about MS. It is truly DIY (do people even understand this any more?) and as the purchaser you need to know this going in. If you want plug and play then pony up the $$$ and pay for it and while you're at it pay for the install. Funny thing is if you go read the support forums for those "other" products you'll see some of the EXACT same issues, questions, complaints, etc as you see here or on other MS forums and most of the time it's installer/operator error. I would imagine a tuner would be leery of tuning a <insert high dollar name brand here> setup when the customer drives up in some sort of wiring spaghetti monster. So again, it's really the end user driving people's opinions either directly or indirectly.

I also think it's a bit silly to call out a small business selling a DIY product and ask them to spend many thousands of dollars on pro videos and marketing... Sorry I just had to throw that in...

I will add as someone new to the whole Megasquirt world I can say it's VERY overwhelming. There is information buried all over the Internet, and sometimes buried in hard to reach sections of single websites. This information is sometimes overlapping, conflicting, and hard to read. I've just bounced around a few MSxxxx forums by the admins for posting the wrong question, for the wrong product, in the wrong place. Again it's DIY, so knowing this I am fine with staying up until 1AM many nights researching and drawing things out.

Human nature is a funny thing, someone comes out with some sort of really cool item they built themselves and wish to share, that's the awesome side. Then you have the type that is attracted to this DIY item for price only, but don't want to really do it themselves. They are going the "cheap" route. **BUT** they expect Khan Academy tutorials, software wizards, 24x7 tech support and so on. I experienced this first hand when I started playing with Ford EEC tuning a long time ago. I had so much fun with the EEC-Tuner and later the TwEEcer along with some other software that was written by one of the founding guys of SCT (software guy not money man) that I opened my own little business geared towards DIY'ers. I finally gave up and closed it down. While many people knew what they were buying, the "I write the check someone else does it" crowd finally got the best of me.

[jsmcortina]

I've just bounced around a few MSxxxx forums by the admins for posting the wrong question, for the wrong product, in the wrong place.

You won't get that treatment on the main forum (this one.)

James

[ifreaknik]

Wish they had a refund policy.

[subwoofer]

It is becoming clear to me that the plethora of versions - both HW and FW - may not be good for the image of the product. Combined with the very fragmented web presence of B&G it is difficult to get a coherent picture before one accidentally stumbles across msextra.com. This poor fellow is probably primarily a victim of this fragmentation: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 20#p394785

Also, hasn't the time come to leave out support for ignition modules like EDIS (and TFI, if I understand it right it is sort of the same concept except it fires a single coil)? I keep seeing new questions about EDIS, why not reduce workload and just support direct ignition control?

Furthermore, isn't the MS1 due for retirement as an active product? The Microsquirt and MS2 are still dirt cheap as ECUs go, is there really a need for an even cheaper one? Retiring the MS1 just might help kill the notion that MS is a "toy system".

[jsmcortina]

Furthermore, isn't the MS1 due for retirement as an active product? The Microsquirt and MS2 are still dirt cheap as ECUs go, is there really a need for an even cheaper one? Retiring the MS1 just might help kill the notion that MS is a "toy system".

I agree, but apparently people keep buying MS1 and will do until supplies of the processors run out.

James

[chrisjbell]

Also, hasn't the time come to leave out support for ignition modules like EDIS (and TFI, if I understand it right it is sort of the same concept except it fires a single coil)? I keep seeing new questions about EDIS, why not reduce workload and just support direct ignition control?

I may be misunderstanding your meaning but my reaction is "no way!". The older ignition modules like EDIS are used on... older cars. I do want the ability to upgrade the parts of my car that need upgrading but there are some subsystems that I don't want to f*** with because they work fine. While the plethora of options available is bewildering at times it is also one of the key attractions.

[cygnus x-1]

It seems to me that people have forgotten (or never knew in the first place) that the original intent of the Megasquirt ECU was not to be a polished, 100% debugged, plug-and-play product, but to be more of an educational kit that you can install on an engine to experiment with fuel injection. To this end it was designed with maximum flexibility in mind, with the assumption that it would take some amount of effort to install and tune. It is a DIY system at it's foundation. Add to this the constant and continuing evolution of the hardware and software, and you get a fairly high level of chaos in the documentation. Consequently I think the "Megasquirt universe" will always be more chaotic than that of other ECUs. It is inevitable given the scope of the overall project.

The DIY nature of Megasquirt is the very antithesis of "buy a bunch of parts and take everything to the tuner and let them deal with it". THIS, along with everything that comes with it, is why most Tuners hate MS.

And if we wanted to take the MAC approach, we would not be messing with ECUs at all. We would go to the car dealer and say "I want a blue one". And they would say "We have white. Here you go".


But ok. I get it. The target audience has shifted and now and we want things to be easier. Defragmenting and streamlining the documentation will help, although it will be a seriously monumental task. Adding something like a setup wizard to TunerStudio is an interesting idea, but I don't know how practical it would be given the huge number of hardware and firmware variations possible. Trying to pick a standardized set of sensors would be hopeless. By the time you narrowed it down enough to be manageable it would only work for a small percentage of users.

Phasing out old products (like MS1) might help too but at this point I'm doubting it would make much difference. And with the move towards more plug-and-play devices, it would be a shame to lose sight of the core founding principle of MS, which is DIY fuel injection.


C|

[Joe]

Well Put. (Above Post)

The amount of effort put in by the developers is still amazing to me.

This type of project is not for everyone.

Where it started and what it's become has changed Hotrod history.


Joe

[Matt Cramer]

Wish they had a refund policy.

It is posted on our website under Shipping and Returns.

In case you were wondering about his other thread - we've assigned his case to a different tech. Ben may not be quite as patient as I am, but that may be what this guy needs...

[Chiburbian]

It seems to me that people have forgotten (or never knew in the first place) that the original intent of the Megasquirt ECU was not to be a polished, 100% debugged, plug-and-play product, but to be more of an educational kit that you can install on an engine to experiment with fuel injection. To this end it was designed with maximum flexibility in mind, with the assumption that it would take some amount of effort to install and tune. It is a DIY system at it's foundation. Add to this the constant and continuing evolution of the hardware and software, and you get a fairly high level of chaos in the documentation. Consequently I think the "Megasquirt universe" will always be more chaotic than that of other ECUs. It is inevitable given the scope of the overall project.

I agree with the above but at the same time I feel that we need to do a better job at documentation and reducing fragmentation. For example, early on in my build I kept hearing the advice when I googled "Read the megamanual" but when I used that as my reference, it only confused me. I remember using several different sites in my build because what one site had the other did not. For example, which build manual should I follow? We have one on MSextra and there is one in the megamanual site. Honestly there are some graphics on the megamanual site that were invaluable (specifically the componant map) but when bouncing back and forth between sites there lies the opportunity for confusion. Speaking of which, what is the difference between megamanual/megasquirt and MSextra/Megasquirt? Is there anything we can do to steer people the right way the first time?

There is SO much good information on this and many other websites but because development has moved so far so fast it is easy to look at a post from even a year past and get advice that is completely backwards. An example is the boost control normal/inverted thing. If you didn't know that tooltips have been added you could be very much confused. Obviously it is imposible to reference every modification you may be speaking of, but perhaps if there were some way to add a permanant "stamp" that included what box you were referring to in that post as well as what firmware? Maybe it's something we can do on our own (by posting at the botton of our post) to help future tuners?

EDIT- Another example:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/build_manual.html

23) Solder a wire between s12c and JS9, this feeds the stepper motor driver on the MS3 CPU card. Even if you are not going to use a stepper idle valve, it is needed to use those outputs for other purposes and for the MS3X switch inputs. Do install it.
(Note that this link is for Megasquirt-2 and Megasquirt-3 only, not the older Megasquirt-1)

http://www.megamanual.com/index.html

22. Now you need to make a decision on the first 'optional' component: if you are going to use an IAC stepper motor with MegaSquirt-II, you must install a jumper from the hole marked S12C to the hole marked JS9 (+12C). These are on the bottom side of the board, on the DB9 side of the processor. DO NOT INSTALL THIS JUMPER FOR NON-MegaSquirt-II APPLICATIONS - IT WILL DESTROY THE PROCESSOR!!

Two seemingly completely different directions. It also doesn't help that Board design 2.2, Board design 3, Megasquirt 2, Megasquirt 3... It's confusing.

[dontz125]

The difference between megamanual and MS/Extra is the firmware has several significant differences, and the way the hardware has to be configured / wired is also different to utilise those differences.

I've seen several comments that the documentation has to be overhauled; James has spent quite some time doing exactly that. He has posted his draft of the manual - take a look and see. For those who get lost while using entering values in TS - the next beta of TS will not only have tooltips, it will integrate with the manual!

[Chiburbian]

Is "classic" firmware still in development?