Why does a lot tuners hate MS

[dontz125]

Not sure what you mean. The MS1 firmware is no longer supported, B&G or Extra. MS2 B&G and Extra are both in development, as is the MS3.

[Chiburbian]

By "Classic" I mean a separate line of firmware outside of the "extra" family. B&G as you describe it...

[kjones6039]

By "Classic" I mean a separate line of firmware outside of the "extra" family. B&G as you describe it...

I think Don answered that above. AFAIK B&G code continues to be developed for MS2.

Ken

[jasaircraft]

per the thread question, the only troublesome thing I can observe on the MS ecus is the triggering, which on other brands is generally just resumes to wiring in the correct order and setting up software correctly. Besides that the lack of password protection and thats it, all other stuff I see is great, specially the i/o test modes ...

[ifreaknik]

I've noticed that almost all other fuel management systems offer video tutorials. They go over in detail what each feature does and why they designed it to do so. DIY providing this would be like Accel Enrich, filling the gap on the competive landscape table.

[Fuzzyd]

This is what a tuner told me when I asked why he doesnt touch Megasquirt

My problem with mega squirt is more so the actual code and engineering. The last time I checked timing scatter on a MS unit was horrendous as well as the transition loop from various tables to one another.

[elaw]

This is what a tuner told me when I asked why he doesnt touch Megasquirt

My problem with mega squirt is more so the actual code and engineering. The last time I checked timing scatter on a MS unit was horrendous as well as the transition loop from various tables to one another.

Why do I suspect "the last time he checked" was probably 10+ years ago on an MS1...

[racingmini_mtl]

Why do I suspect "the last time he checked" was probably 10+ years ago on an MS1...

My thoughts exactly. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was using a distributor-based tach trigger on top of that.

Jean

[Matt Cramer]

If that's the tuner I'm thinking of (is he in Canada by any chance?), he ran into an issue caused by a mistake in documentation on the EEC-IV adapter board (wrong pull up on an EDIS module) and spent several years complaining about timing scatter issues. He admitted what was wrong with the install and when the install was fixed, the timing became a lot more accurate.

[T3Bunny]

...I had one prospective customer ask how much for install and tuning for a used unit. Response, "why would I pay that to install a $125 computer?" Maybe if you want it to work without having to think yourself? ;)

And THIS is why I stopped doing installs.... Too many installs for "pals" with barely charging to even cover the cost of parts. And then getting badmouthed as I didn't spend days tuning it to perfection for them... Oh, and if I had charged them anything, let alone fair market value, for the used bits I inevitably had to scrounge out of my bins, the installs would have been HUNDREDS MORE than I charged. As for my time? I never charged a fair price there. For me anyways.

Why do I still do MS, and why would I still consider doing installs? I LOVE this! The challenge, the learning. Every day it is a new interesting puzzle. Heck, this morning my car didn't want to start. I had suspected I had an ASE enrichment hole for a while. I found it, and had it reprogrammed in a couple minutes!

2 people I talk to in my area dismiss MS for other options.
One guy is a Haltech reseller. The other guy thinks the name and Dsub connectors are cheesy.
They don't have any fundamental reasons for disliking it.

I HAVE to agree on both counts! But hey, the name is fun! I abuse it! I get plenty of comments about the stickers on my car and toolbox. As for the dsub, well ANYTHING more costs LOTS more! I wish there was a reasonable alternative to dsub connectors. They really do not belong on the primary ECU plugs.

But having said that, in the 100k plus miles my own cars have been squirted and that many times more my customers cars have been, I have seen VERY few failures of these. I was using crimp style dsubs early on, those had a small failure rate. The V2.2 ECU's had a high-ish failure rate on the db9 tuning plug. No surprise there, but not a game, or car killer. And like many other small issues, it was solved in the next version ECU that got put out.

There is a BIG advantage to dsubs. Costs. When one goes to build a test harness or breakout box setup, it doesn't cost $200 in connectors alone!

As for fixing "bad installs" even an experienced installer like myself can always learn ways to improve on an install. The biggest thing I have learned is ANY non-running install brought to me will be 90% guaranteed to need a whole new harness. It is not worth my time to try and fix bad work...

I see a LOT of posts in this thread about "not reading the information/manuals/etc..." Back in the day (the early days of "Glen's Garage") when I did my very first install there was an install manual and I printed it out. Heck, I think I still have it somewhere... Anyways I spent the 3-4 month wait for my ecu, reading that manual cover to cover again and again. When I final got my ecu and got it built, I tested and retested everything. First on the bench with the stim, then in the car. When I was ready for the first cranking attempt, she fired right up ON THE FIRST TRY.

I had come from a "big name" ecu that had NEVER run properly. Tech support for that ECU was non-existent, yet it was one of the bigger names out there.

Over the years and well over 100 installs, I have had MANY MANY questions. anything not answered by a Google search or a quick link to the right section of the manuals, has almost ALWAYS been quickly answered by somebody on these forums. So sure while many of the main contributors are engineers and code slingers, my questions still get answered in a timely manner.

...I cant believe how much the help this forum has been for me, and my friends, I have better response to problems from the forum here than I do contacting "professionals" about their products..... b&M torque converters for instance... were not very helpful at all.
Keep up the good work........
A very satisfied megasquirt user.

x 10!!! My experiences exactly!!!

I can't really say I have anything... "productive" to add to this discussion other than praise for the whole MS system. Over the years MANY suggestions and requests I have put out there, have been carried out and implemented. In the code itself, hardware, and support software.

Can ANYONE name a single "big name" system out there that gives us such DIRECT access to support? Nope. No big name will ever let a "little guy" like me have any real influence over things or take so much time out to offer assistance. If I post up in the Software section with a problem, Phil is almost always right there to offer support. Or any time I have an odd issue in regards to settings or a car not running right, James (or one of the other code "gods") is quick to offer ideas and suggestions.

You couldn't PAY me to go to any other system. Even if you were paying me and handing it to me for free. Nope!

[Fuzzyd]

If that's the tuner I'm thinking of (is he in Canada by any chance?), he ran into an issue caused by a mistake in documentation on the EEC-IV adapter board (wrong pull up on an EDIS module) and spent several years complaining about timing scatter issues. He admitted what was wrong with the install and when the install was fixed, the timing became a lot more accurate.

Yes he is in Canadia and it is probably the exact tuner you are thinking of. He said he "wont go near, nor tune anything with megasquirt,"
I told him "wow, business must be good for you if you can pick and choose your customers."

He didnt like that.

[suberimakuri]

10 years ago did first fuel only MS install on my combined daily+track car, it did events every month. Put one in a mates car.
It was very DIY then, we even coded an assembly boost cut. It was spectacularly cheap, worked near flawlessy, unlike our wiring but we survived.
The ignition was troublesome then so we ran mostly fuel only, it was fine.
Lots of people asked about it and I told them they need to be able to do the lot if want to install. Only a handful did and I think that's a good thing. I turned down offers to build and install for others. Didn't want to support them.
A few people have mentioned it here, maybe that's a worthy disclaimer if not already there?

Fast forward 10 years and a great tuner/fabricator I know found timing lagging when tuning, turns it was an older MS1 install with wasted spark on a turbo 4 cyl. Who knows what the code version was, he didn't. The tuner inherited a bunch of hassles with it due to 'not capable of DIY' guy doing DIY then dumping at tuner.
I agree be nice to dump MS1 chips now, but understand the position said above. Fair call.

I've just started up a MS3x install and didn't get sync for a week because I missed moving the jumper on the MS3x board in the manual. Classic user error.

To help with selecting ECU's and doing basic settings, what about an engine database with a standard template, kind of like linux on laptops?
The success stories are great, but I think a searchable database would build quickly and contain a lot of the settings info that can be missed or confused in the docs..?

Engine: 4age
Chip: MS3
Code: v1.3
Board: v3 + MS3x
Ignition: stock 24+1 distributor, NE wired to Crank pin, G1 wired to MS3x cam pin, toothed wheel, cam input rising, 20 deg, R52/56 just off click, MS3x jumper on.. Screenshot
Fuel: stock injectors 295cc (?), Req fuel 8(can't remember)... Screen shot.
Fuel and Ignition VE tables attached.
Comments: Much preferred and less custom than earlier MS1 install. Recommend this setup.
User: john-doe

Engine: 4age
Chip: MS2
Code: MS2extra v 3.0.1
Board: v2.2 board
Ignition: stock 24+1 distributor, NE tooth grinded making 12-1, JBperf LM1815 card for NE signal, wasted spark on LED's 17 19 ?
Fuel: 550cc injectors, req fuel 5
Fuel and Ignition VE tables attached:
Comments: Cheap setup done on a budget, had to change JBPerf resistor sizes to XOhms, works pretty good though.
User: Michael Smith.

My mate (from 10 years ago install) has just ordered a MS2 chip for a v2.2 board that I installed in the car ~5 years ago. Classic. Look forward to new docs and MS2extra code. Cheers!

[jasaircraft]

Karl its good to know you didnt get sync loss on that 4age, could you please share your msq?
I have struggled with sync issues for 4ages lol. Ended up using jbperfboards

[AndrewRX]

I also like the direction the hardware has taken lately with the Microsquirt and MS3Pro, both in packaged and module form. The packaged units for those who just needs something that works, and modules for the 5-10% that have special needs or feel like experimenting. I honestly don't see that there could be much value in terms of business with the traditional kits, and the business model could possibly do with a revision. The firmware is such a large part of the package that I think paying the developers for it at purchase is the correct way to do it rather than relying on donations.

My two bits in the bucket...

I admit to be baffled by the present model and I have no idea what the sales of non-MS3 units are outside of my own purchasing. I would guess that only B&G know how many of each are sold as they'd be either paid for every board created by a licensee (assumption) or manage the board manufacturing directly. That I don't want anything to do with an MS3Pro unit in no way takes away from the fact that you do. Similarly, my preference for an inexpensive MS2 kit in no way takes away from your desire for a comparatively hands-off MS3Pro. I, and I would guess enough others to warrant continued sales to this point, still want the intensive, hand's on, make-me-work-for-it experience provided by the kit. Granted, it would be easier if the supporting docs were flawless, but then I haven't exactly paid for flawless so I'm not complaining.

Killing off the MS1 sounds like a bad idea. It's a well-established, stable platform that doesn't require the level of support some of the later versions do. While I don't see the cost difference between MS1 and 2 to warrant the MS1 purchase, it could be argued that it's stable condition makes it more attractive than the MS2. Having not owned an MS1 or supported anyone who does, I'm only guessing of course. The resellers and distributors would be far better judges of what's required post-sale.

The problem with charging for anything beyond the parts is the expectation it creates. If I tell you I have a virtually free EFI controller that works if you put some time and effort into it, most purchasers of the kit will accept some level of frustration as they go ahead with it and find little bugs here and there. Conversely, if they put up $1200 for a "finished" controller, they're going to expect infinitely more support than they were for a $300 bag of parts. Granted, it may be easier to support a product put together in a board house and not by someone who's just tried to put together their board with a propane torch and plumber's solder.

The same support theory would apply to the firmware as well.

My perception of MegaSquirt has always been that it grew out of a means to reduce Al and Bruce's personal cost to embark on this path of exploration and discovery. By running enough boards to get beyond the $20/sq in single-layer board pricing and into something that qualifies as a run, they reduced their own costs and gave others their first step down the same path. I don't envision that it's making them rich (maybe I'm wrong, I don't care if it is) and I am deeply appreciative that the community, by and large, has stayed true to it's not-in-it-to-get-rich culture. Users help each other out, answer the same questions countless times, wear out the RTM and MSQ keys on their keyboards and so on. As a community, far more gets done for free and donations than would ever be done if suddenly the $ became the prevailing measure.

The success of MS threatens to derail what it's become if it's not managed correctly and part of that requires managing users expectations. This is not Pectel/MoTec/HalTech/McLaren (where you need to be an engineer to figure it out) - it is MegaSquirt. If you want to DIY, this is the place. If you want to partial DIY, this is still the place. If you want cash-and-carry - this ain't the place. It's success is it's flexibility, do-almost-anything, not require a 2nd-mortgage platform. It's great.

Somewhere, on one of the many, many pages I've read in the last few weeks, there was a statement made that B&G "takes care of developers". I'm not sure if that still applies or only applies to a select few, but if you've written / contributed to the MS/Extra code (and all the other non-Al code), I hope you're included.

[seishuku]

IMO MS1 is still perfectly useable, nothing wrong with it.
Not to be a stick-in-the-mud, but if you take the MS1/Extra code, strip out all the junk that either doesn't work or just isn't used (traction control?!), it could possibly free up enough temp storage/ram that you could add more useful features to improve it...
Though I do like the mc9s12 processor, it is nice to be able to do pretty much whatever I want.

[dontz125]

Two problems with updating and maintaining the MS1 - first, there's no-one with the talent who has stepped up to own the MS1 Extra code. James and Ken are both heavily involved with developing the MS3 code, and James (with Jean's help) is keeping the MS2 code up to date. In his copious spare time, James is also updating (overhauling!) the manuals. Second, the DIP-40 version of the MS1 chip is basically out of production. There is a QFP-48 (IIRC) still being made, but that doesn't work so well with a through-hole board.

I agree with what you're saying, but there are obstacles to restoring the MS1 to its former glory.

[slow_hemi6]

MS1's Achilles heel for many was resolution. HR code helped but it killed the flyback control.

[jsmcortina]

the DIP-40 version of the MS1 chip is basically out of production.

68hc908gp32-obsolete.png

Once supplies run out, MS1 is complete. I will not be licensing MS1/Extra to run on different processor variants.

James

[Manu]

Good news

[cukali]

I tune Hondata, all AEM versions, Haltech, Chrome, Uberdata, Nistune, COBB, HPTuners, and many others. When I first read about MS in a magazine (Miata budget build), I bought one to see how good it was. First off, the fact of building one is a bit of a put-off for most. There is a certain amount of bias towards bigger names and following crowds.

Now, for me, I always first suggest MS2 or MS3 for everyone who asks my opinion. Anyone who has thier own opinion I do not even mention it since you never know how they will react if you suggest something they feel is not as good as what they think is best. Now the best thing about MS is open source. Simplicity in the software but with all the flexability.

AEM software is way to "over thought" and you can only be as good as the program. Big names tend to feel you should "do it their way" when they develope the software. Now AEM I used as only 1 example. Many others are the same way and some actually are very well thought out.


Side by side, they tend to judge the MS systems as cheaper and "homemade". (No fancy smancy cases) But as soon as I show them the software on a running system (using my Galaxy Note II) they get very interested. Try BT tuning with Hondata (NOT!!) or with AEM (double NOT!!!).

If I can sell someone on a MS3, I get more for installing and setting up, customer pays MUCH less than a "Name Brand" that can barely do half as much, and they can use it on any of thier vehicles.

Haltech, Adaptronics, AEM, Venom, Holley, and several others cost more than what some will pay for a MS2/MS3 with install and tune. They vacuum up too much profits for the product and software they sell.


JMO.