Why does a lot tuners hate MS

[ehrnst]

Hello.

I have talked to two dusin professional tuners over the years, and most of them simply just hate MegaSquirt. But all the large brands are OK for them (no matter what they sell). Is it like this in other country's around the globe as well?

[wes kiser]

Many times it is based on a very small number of terrible experiences. There are two primary factors that work against the MS (particularly the more advanced MS2 Extra and MS3 setups):

1) The system is configurable to be all things to all people. With the great number of options, it is a bit difficult for some one to quickly know/understand all the nuances to get the system to "do what is is told." This is in most cases entirely up to the end user/builder. If the end user/builder is the type that "needs" a professional tuner, the likely do not posses the knowledge level to do this on their own (leaving the "tuner" to figure it out, which if he wants to make a profitt becomes impossible to do properly).

2) The systems are self installed and configured. Many times (most of the times) an uninformed end user leaves a poorly configured/setup system in the hands of a tuner. Again, the users who are inclinded to pay a professional to tune it, likely don't understand what they have all that well anyway.

The systems work quite well, and generally are more capable than what most "tuners" love. Again, with this capability also comes complexity/choice.

[Joe]

Well put-

Dyno runs with megasquirt are often troubleshooting sessions. The majority of the time is spent
chasing build issues, wiring gremlins, ground loops etc.... which should have been resolved prior
to a tuning session. I'm a megasquirt supporter and many times a tune session is hours spent
on base settings for odd hardware with minimal specs. It's not very profitable.

But when time is not an issues there is nothing more fun then sorting some of these things out.

Joe

Merk: For mange år siden jeg bodde i Bodø

[slow_hemi6]

Just as an addition to that, MS is actually in a fairly constant state of evolution and development. Things change, and for tuners the MS they tune tomorrow can have a different configuration/settings to the one they did last month. Evolution is something I love about MS but can be a pain for tuners. With some tuners they like to know it all, but they don't like to have to constantly update their knowledge.

[Brian]

I talked to a dyno shop owner. What he told me is most of ones he sees are coat hanger abortions that are nearly unfixable. Instead of tuning, he's chasing sync errors and intermittent electrical problems. I can see why they're so biased.

I'm inclined to believe properly set up and well installed MS systems are never taken to professional tuners. But the ones that are poorly set up and never work right are dropped in their laps to try and sort out.

[JAM]

Just as an addition to that, MS is actually in a fairly constant state of evolution and development. Things change, and for tuners the MS they tune tomorrow can have a different configuration/settings to the one they did last month. Evolution is something I love about MS but can be a pain for tuners. With some tuners they like to know it all, but they don't like to have to constantly update their knowledge.

very true. one of the many benefits of MS is that if there is something you want, and can make a good case for it, the developers will likely consider implementing it into the code... and in general as it goes, people like what they know.... and haters will hate, but usually hate what they don't know/understand or are intimidated by.

in my experience once it boils down to the facts, many people seem angry they spent cubic $ on engine management that has less functionality than the ms3x... just observations

[billr]

I would like to put this back on the OP: when those tuners say they hate MS, what are the reasons they give?

[Brian]

Yea, people spending 5 times the money for something far less capable usually pisses them off.

I'm building an MS2 system for my nextg project, turbo 3L Duratec fore the rear of a kit car.

I have:
batch injection
wasted spark, with the 3 drivers in the box
innercooler fans controlled by MS
radiator fans controlled by MS
Knock sensor with conditioner inside the box
boost control
A/C compressor disable



Again, all inside the box, and for under $350

Where else could I get such a specialized ECU?

I did add a second heat sink for the extra 7 output transistors

[Joe]

"I'm inclined to believe properly set up and well installed MS systems are never taken to professional tuners."

Once in a while they are and Megasquirt shows it's superiority. The person knows HIS setup well, has a specific
goal in mind. It's generaly already a fairly well running machine in search of some peak performance.

Those are the ones dyno owners don't mind. It's profitable.

The majority of MS's that are brought in are trouble. Something is not working correctly and the install is questionable
at best. My favorite. "I bought this used, can you fix it?"
Some people aren't sure what version they own or what firmware is in it much less what mods have been done.


I know the amount of time I've spent making my personal setup's run well, cold start nice, transition etc....

Could you amagine paying someone over $100 HR(Non Dyno time) to do this?? Dyno time is the finish.

A lot of people think a Pro can sort out there one of a kind setups in a few hours. Not usually the case.


megasquirts great but you get out of it what you put in. It's a learning experience every time (I like that by the way)


Hate = NO money in it. (More non billable time then billable)

Just my experience-

Joe

[slow_hemi6]

I frequent a few specific car forums and always see this one come up.
Q. Converting to efi, what ecu shoud I get?
By Far the most common answer....
A. Go see your Tuner/Dyno operator and see what they use/like/get best results from.
Then followed by a flurry of thumbs up's, Agree, +1's and back slapping smileys.
Says it all really.

[E4ODnut]

In defence of MS, I have over 8 years and 100,000 km on my E150. We just completed a cross Canada trip in our motorhome, 16,000 km in 91 days. Not one MS related problem on either machine and they run as good as or better than they did on EEC-IV, well, perhaps almost as good. The main thing is they run the way I want them to.

As was stated earlier, those that don't like MS probably don't take the time to understand the system. I don't know if there is a solution for that.

[DaveEFI]

I would like to put this back on the OP: when those tuners say they hate MS, what are the reasons they give?

Why does a plumber recommend a particular make of boiler? Because he gets it at a good price and is familiar with it. Which doesn't mean it is the best boiler on the market.

The trick is to find a plumber who does know the best boiler on the market.

Same with MS. If you want a pro tune done, find a tuner familiar with MS.

[jsmcortina]

I think the OP's question is a valid one to ask. I also agree with many of the responses here.

While there are many excellent installs that get taken to the dyno for fine tuning, there are also going to be shabby installs put together by the inexperienced.

The entry-level Megasquirt products (e.g. MS1 V2.2 self-assemble) are a double-edged sword. On the one hand they allow the cost-sensitive buyer to step into the EFI world without breaking the bank, but also they allow some to attempt a task that is perhaps beyond their skills. I suspect that the latter category is what the hater-tuners may be frequently seeing.

I've also seen reports from a few tuners confused by some of the "scientific" setting names in MS2/BG (and also alpha-N requiring a TPS-> MAP lookup table.)

As regards "so many different versions" yes, understood. One recent effort has been making MS2 look and behave more like MS3. So at least if a tuner or user encounters one they are at least part-way there with the other. (MS2/Extra 3.3.x codes)

Back to the original point though, can we get actual meaningful feedback from tuners on their perceived problems? What can we do about it?

James

[Matt Cramer]

I thought I'd see if I could get some feedback from pros on the EFI101 forum here:

http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8276 (mod edit, correct URL)

Some factors I've seen that have given tuners problems:

1. As James and Wes mentioned, MegaSquirt's low price can make it attractive to people who are really in over their heads. It can get even worse when someone gets in over his head at the build phase. So many of the builds a shop sees need major straightening out, and may have either assembly errors or atrocious wiring.

2. The ability to customize it also means that boards don't have a standard feature set. A lot of MegaSquirts show up as unmarked aluminum boxes, and the only way to figure out what it can do is to open it up and examine the circuits.

3. Customers sometimes have unrealistic expectations. Just because you spent 1/4 as much on a wire-in MegaSquirt as a Haltech does not mean that it will cost 1/4 as much to install and tune as a Haltech. There's just as much labor involved for either one.

[jsmcortina]

In a related way, see also: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 22&t=50566

James

[JAM]

If I was a tuner and ran into questions about a system or how to tune it, and the customer standing there did not know the answer and was likely able to be answered by a quick question, it would be nice to be able to pick up the phone and get an answer from tech support…. After all they are more than likely trying to make $$, and they normally do not want to have to charge the customer any more time than they have to. The clock does not stop for technical difficulties and when the car is already strapped down….

[baldur]

I shy away from accepting jobs that involve helping people finish MS setups they've started themselves. MS does work fine but it requires certain hardware fixes and like every other system, the wiring must be perfect, nothing less is acceptable. Not an MS specific thing but applies to all wiring done by novices, it's usually crap and you end up having to redo it all yourself.
What I do is assemble the units myself, wire them in and tune them. I've done dozens of these and most of them I never see again after I've tuned them, they just work and there are no complaints.
I have one complaint though for MS2extra, but it probably applies to other versions, it's that diagnosing sync problems is no fun. The data logs give "lost sync count" and "lost sync reason" but it's often difficult to determine what the reason actually means, I end up digging through the source code to determine and then wish it logged the parameters that caused the sync exception. Maybe a tooth logger mode in Tunerstudio that included a sync loss trigger could help, so it would record and then stop recording after one or two sync loss events, even overlaying sync loss count/reason over the tooth timing graph.
On the other hand, 95% of the cars I wire up and tune have no sync loss issues at all.

[ehrnst]

WOW, this thread evolved. Nice.

Any way. went to a tuner and strapped my car to the dyno today. After a few runs (me on the computer, tapping the keys with guidelines) i asked what i thought about MS, and the answer was. "honestly, i think it is garbage. i have struggled with so many setups....." but i also noticed that on my MS3, the response and 3d fuel/ign map was one of the best he has seen. We talked further, and from what i understood, he was pretty tired of people just leaving the car in his drive way and to pick it up later. A lot of these cars was installed with MS, all different setups and of course this causes a lot of problems.

Me on the other hand, drove the car for an hour, mounted it on his dynapack and we went away. Two hours later, including tuning and tossing out my TPS that had gone bad we where finished. So from what i can understand it could be related to the numerous differences with MegaSquirt, and that a lot of people that buy these systems don't know much about EFI.

FYI, this guy has also had problems with Haltech and Autronic. He only sells pectel, but said he would tune anything, and was happy to have a guy in his garage that could teach him something about the new features in MS3(X). That said, i did not know any differences between 1, 2 and 3.

[jsmcortina]

I have one complaint though for MS2extra, but it probably applies to other versions, it's that diagnosing sync problems is no fun. The data logs give "lost sync count" and "lost sync reason" but it's often difficult to determine what the reason actually means, I end up digging through the source code to determine and then wish it logged the parameters that caused the sync exception. Maybe a tooth logger mode in Tunerstudio that included a sync loss trigger could help, so it would record and then stop recording after one or two sync loss events, even overlaying sync loss count/reason over the tooth timing graph.

Have you used the "sync error logger" ? How do other ECUs do in this area?

James

[prof315]

I am a tuner ( though I don't own a dyno) and I actually prefer MS to other systems. ANY time I take a customers car to the dyno for tuning I first make sure everything is working properly even if I have to rough in the tune and or fix things before hand. There have been some occasions where I've had to open up the case and check the build and even a few times where I sent the customer away because the car wasn't anywhere near ready for the dyno but for the most part 20 minutes to an hour of pre dyno prep is all that's needed.

But as the OP stated a lot of tuners don't care for MS, though that does seem to be slowly changing here in Florida as more and more MS powered cars show up at the dyno.