Timing light won't work...

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a_housos
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Timing light won't work...

Post by a_housos »

Hey guys,
This is really strange. I cannot get my timing light to work when I am cranking the engine. It was working yesterday, but somehow I have screwed something up. Here is the background of what I am working with. MS3-pro. I'm running coil on plug. LS coils. I have a hall effect crank sensor with 36-1. The cam sensor is a VR sensor from an explorer. The thing is that Tunerstudio is telling me that it is syncing up, but when I do a composite datalog the cam sensor has all kind of flaky readings. I attached two logs here. One without noise filtering and one with. They both look the same. I also included my tuning file as well. Is there a setting on the cam sensor that I am missing to run it as a VR? Oh and I can get the timing light to work perfectly if I go into the coil testing mode. It strobes perfectly, and in time with the coil. I can actually hear the spark jumping the gap. Can anyone think of what I might be missing???
Maverick 4-6 first try_2014-04-08_23.04.59.msq
2014-04-08_22.46.26.csv
a_housos
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by a_housos »

One last thing...out of desperation I changed the cam trigger from rising and falling to poll. And oddly enough the timing light worked perfectly. My understanding is that polling is only supposed to work with the half moon triggers. I'm not complaining mind you, but I would like to understand why this worked when nothing else would? I should probably point out that the explorer cam sync that I am using is a small single tooth with what I am thinking is a VR sensor. Maybe I just need to change this to something else. I am open for ideas. But using the composite logger, it still looks like I have a bunch of misfires on the cam sensor.
Matt Cramer
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by Matt Cramer »

Poll level mode may show sync, but probably won't get the phase right. Is this a 2 wire or 3 wire Explorer cam sync?
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
a_housos
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by a_housos »

Two wire. Oh and it showed sync both with rising and falling, but it wouldn't trigger my timing light. (I've used two different timing lights to make sure that wasn't the problem.)
Matt Cramer
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by Matt Cramer »

That's a VR sensor. You may need to put a 10K resistor across it to reduce noise, or in some cases, run the 10K resistor from CMP- to signal ground to prevent it from triggering on very low voltage noise. Let me know how this goes.

Will it trigger your timing light in output test mode?
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
a_housos
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by a_housos »

Oh yeah, it triggers my timing light just fine in test mode.
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by a_housos »

I added the resistors and I don't think it made any difference at all.
billr
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by billr »

Have you tried disconnecting the cam sensor and using wasted-COP? As it is right now, will it start and run, just not trigger the light?
a_housos
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by a_housos »

I believe that it will start in wasted COP mode. I had it set that way the day before yesterday and that was the only way it would start. Now when I say start, that is about all it would do. It wouldn't idle, but then it was pig rich. You could really smell the raw fuel. Oh and I should add that I didn't disconnect the cam sensor at that time.

I've just discovered that there is a hall effect explorer sensor as well. Had I known that I would have bought that one to begin with. If we are all in agreement that it is the cam sensor, then I can certainly get this other one. I just don't want to throw good money after bad if this can be made to work.
billr
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by billr »

Okay, so the issue isn't so much that the timing light won't work as it is that there is no spark with COP. I would get it up-and-running on wasted-COP, both to reduce your frustration and to ensure all but the cam sensor are OK. Does the timing light work on wasted-COP?

As to the running rich, those injectors are very, very big, so getting dead-time measured is going to be critical, it looks like you are using the generic 1 msec "first guess". Your tune file indicates using gasoline, 14.7 AFR, for the req_fuel calc of 3 msec. Do you really need that much fuel flow (~2400 hp)??? If so, then I wouldn't think idle quality would be much of an issue...
a_housos
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by a_housos »

Yeah, sounds kind of outrageous to use those injectors when you look at it. But in my defense it is a turbocharged car that I will ultimately run E85 in (it was carburated up until about 6 months ago when I started on this fuel injection project). I have gas in there right now because I wanted to get the car up and running with the least amount of variables on the MS3. I also have the Ethanol sensor wired up just waiting for a load of E85, but I haven't configured any of that yet in Tunerstudio. Actually I have all kinds of things wired in that I haven't set up yet. I've got the boost control valve, front and rear wheel speed sensors, fuel pressure monitoring...like I said, all kind of options, but nothing is configured yet. I felt I needed to start with basics.

I am confident it will start if I set it on wasted COP and batch fire. You have a good point. I am becoming discouraged and hearing it run might help. Oh and to answer your question...I haven't started it and tried the timing light with wasted COP on. It is all running together now, but I want to say it is set up for wasted COP right now. I've switched back and forth so many times I don't honestly remember.
billr
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by billr »

What BSFC are you figuring for E85 and boost? The first figure I found is .77, seems about right. That would be 1580 hp with those injectors. I'm not saying you can't make that much power with a 5.7L engine, just was flagging it since it would probably be a drag-race only engine, and it didn't sound like that is your application. Point is, with injectors, bigger is not always better, you may be making unnecessary problems for yourself.
a_housos
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by a_housos »

My goal is 1000rwhp. The engine is a 347 built off a Boss block, all forged internals, Dart 225 CNC heads, Super Victor intake. It's a 4 speed car with nitrous and the 80mm T6 turbo. As I said I will be using the E85 for fuel. It ran really good with the E85 and the carb, but this car sits for extended periods of time and I was having trouble keeping residue out of the bowls when the E85 would evaporate. So I decided to go fuel injection. I might be able to get away with a slightly smaller injector, but from my research this is what a lot of people with similar setups run. I didn't figure this was going to be easy...I just didn't think that I would get stuck at the very first step with the ignition.
a_housos
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by a_housos »

Update...
I've changed from the VR sensor at the cam to a Hall Effect. This seems to have corrected my timing light problem and I am not seeing any noise on the cam sensor any more. It still won't start in the COP mode setting, but it will in the wasted COP. I still have the injectors set for fully sequential. So a quick question here, are the injectors firing sequentially when the COP is in wasted COP mode? I would guess that is true, but I just wanted to confirm that.

The next thing I set up is my dead time for the injectors. This calculated out (based on information I was given on these injectors) to .931 at 13.2 volts.

So I'm back to trying to figure out what I am doing wrong with the sequential COP that is not working. Any ideas on where to look?
slow_hemi6
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by slow_hemi6 »

If it will start in wasted cop and not cop does that mean you should try adding 360 degrees to you crank trigger angle?
Find the Manuals up top under Quick links: Manuals. :RTFM:
Cheers Luke
a_housos
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Re: Timing light won't work...

Post by a_housos »

I am embarrassed to even admit this. But in the spirit of full disclosure and the fact that this might help someone in the future...I figured out the problem.

Basically in a sense slow_hemi6 was correct. I didn't see his post until after I figured out the problem, but it turns out that I had the cam sensor 180* out of sync. In other words it was like having the distributor in backwards on a motor. The spark was firing on the wrong stroke. Now in my defense it dumbfounds me how this happened. I know that at one point it was correct. And I have changed the sensor at least twice since then.

Anyhow long story short, I started it on wasted COP and it ran. I changed the setting to COP and tried starting it and one cylinder fired and then nothing. I did that couple times and it backfired. Something in my still living brain cells made me think back to my carb days and that would have been the symptom of a distributor 180* out. That was when the light bulb came on! I re-cold timed the cam sensor and it fired off.

So a word to the wise...never overlook the simple stuff that you are sure in your mind are correct. It always pays to make sure that your initial setup was correct.
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