understanding tip in and tps/map dot

[nathanhardy]

Sure, set lags to 100 and do a data log.

set all the lags to 100 except the MAF because I don't use it.

Thank you!

[Will Powered]

Nathanhardy, What do you have your TPSDot set too? It looks like its way too sensitive. Might want to increase it so its not being activated with such little throttle changes, Should get rid of the drastic changes in Pw and therefore your oscillations. For reference mine is set to 85. Seams to work well for me.

[16vboost]

Have you calibrated your TPS? It should read 0% when you're off the throttle and 100% when you're flooring it. I only see it going to 30% max. There is also a lot of noise in your TPS signal. I would lower the TPS lag factor until this noise is acceptable. Keep in mind that if you lower it too much, you will delay any TPS based accel enrichment response. I would also set the TPSdot threshold higher, probably around 50 for this amount of noise.

Also, more importantly, what's wrong with the tune now? Is it driving ok? What is your next goal?

-Alex

[nathanhardy]

Never full throttled it.. It is calibrated.. Could you come pair it to my other data log and give me an idea of hiw much to lag it? That a way it gives me am idea of how much noise is too much!!

[16vboost]

It really depends on the symptoms. There's nothing necessarily wrong with the signal. How's the car running?

-Alex

[turbo conversion]

Where is your tps ground return grounded to?

If not going to the controller you will have excessive noise.

I had this same type of noise on my first install an that was the problem.

[kjones6039]

It really depends on the symptoms. There's nothing necessarily wrong with the signal. How's the car running?

-Alex

This question really needs to be answered....

Ken

[nathanhardy]

The car runs great I'd say my only issue is accel tuning and this that I'm going to try to explain okay here goes! So I went camping maybe 2000 feet higher then where I normally drive. The car runs great on veal but if I drive that same tune anywhere beside the area I tuned it in the afr are always leaner.. Day vs night and even elevation changes it too.. I've played with baro but that confuses me and I set my clt to mat correction and I don't think it help! Someone local said the only thing he could thing of was my hid headlights but it did the same thing during the day going camping had to add fuel!

[nathanhardy]

Even does it at the same elevation but I have determined the light thing out cause my veal tunes have been during the day and the non tuning runs have been at night... I don't get the light deal unless it's a voltage correction thing haven't played with that.

[nathanhardy]

All my sensors ground to ms all my ms grounds go to a 8 gauge coupler there I sodier my wb ground then that 8 gauge goes to block, then block to battery. Tps, mat, clt and vr all use a milspec sheild wiring same stuff used on f16 fighter...Sheilding is ground to ms side only or done per Manuels if the vr is diffrent can't remember off the top of my head

[kaeman]

I have found that it is easier to tune and control an engine with the lag factors set to 100, because that is the pure signal with no delay or "averaging"... so the controller gets better info to use quicker. Unless you have noise problems then you should be running 100 for those values and the ecu will be able to respond to changes quicker..NO LAG... On my engine the less lag I have the better the engine runs so all my lag values are set to 100 except maf... I am not using one. Good luck.
As far as tuning the vehicle and having it run rich during the day and lean at night then you might need to adjust your MAT correction curve a little bit. usually cooler air is more dense so it would require more fuel to burn the extra o2, like wise warmer air needs less fuel because less available o2. I am currently trying to work out the baro corrections myself, I have been reading that for the baro changes you need to have your VE table pretty well tuned and then take the vehicle to other elevations and adjust the baro curve to add or remove fuel as necessary at each different elevation until you have adjusted the engine where you will be doing the most driving. I made some changes to my MAT corrections and that helped with the leaning out when the engine was seeing changes in the air temp. which could be the difference between day and night driving. Also are you using o2 sensor corrections to help keep the afr where you want it when you are driving?

[turbo conversion]

I agree with kaeman on the mat correction for your changing tune.

Accel enrichment has nothing to do with that issue.

[16vboost]

Are you using low impedance injectors? If not, turn "PWM Current Limiting" to off.

For some reason you're getting no fuel out of your injectors at 1.4ms pulse widths like during over-run. What's your maximum duty cycle at max boost/max RPM? Maybe you can turn down your fuel pressure and increase req fuel to get longer pulse widths at low loads.Is your fuel pressure regulator referencing MAP?

Aside from that, I'd just tune the VE map at a given altitude and temperature. Tune it until your AFR target and AFR are within +/- .3 under steady-state conditions.

Then I'd turn on EGO control and set the PID values pretty low so that it doesn't react to fast transients, but only provides a "long term" correction.

Then I'd tune the MAT table at the same altitude at different temperatures by watching the EGO correction gauge. And lastly I'd try tuning the barometric correction (I have no experience with this). You can decrease the lag factor for Battery/MAT/coolant/Baro if you'd like to smooth out the Baro correction. These things won't change very quickly anyway so lots of smoothing won't slow the response.

Once your engine runs close to the AFR target under different altitudes and pressure (+/- .5 AFR or +/- 10% EGO correction), I'd call it a day. EGO correction will take into account variables that MS can't like the temperature of the fuel.

Then I'd start tuning transients. First with time-based AE and then with EAE for the ultimate in response and hair-pulling. Although, from your logs, it looks like AE is so far off that you should put a little time into that first just to help with driveability while you tune steady state things.

-Alex

[nathanhardy]

Okay thank you for the responses! I'm running high injectors I'm pretty sure I have limiting off if not please show me how I have notice the motor has a very small hicup I bet it's that pw cut out I'm wondering if it's not my overrun tps setting at 3% when I calibrate my tps it seem like it changes almost like the tps sensor is twisting/torquing on the throttle body because it's alway diffrent a little it's not lose just reads diffrent almost every time I calibrate it.. I know my accel is funky I've been playing with it a little I need to put a stiffer spring on the throttle body my pedel if far to soft. I'd like to know how much pw can be added on 42lbs injectors and how much ramp up on the scale and also how much of the scale to use is seems I never can push the pedal fast enough to use the whole scale so should I bring it in a bit? As for mat correction are you guys talking about the gas law one or the clt mat vs air flow one? Right now baro is off or stock ts, also my ego reads 100... But heads up I changed the gauges values to be low -150 current 0 high 150.. So if I'm right that means my ego is correcting 100% I thought for sure veal was closer, the car runs strong and at steady state is pretty spot on with the AFR at cruise anyway pid is turned p 50 I 20 d 0

[Yves]

Interesting read. Could I join in with a question ?

Last time I fiddled with it, I could set the tpsdot value to something like 30. The engine seemed to like it and AE wasn't cutting in during idle running. Is there a problem with a low tpsdot (or mapdot for that matter).It cured a lot of the backfiring and popping I was having.

Also I tried a combined tpsdot/mapdot and that made the engine feel more responsive. I used a 70% tps vs map.

[16vboost]

For time-based AE, I'd set TPS dot as low as possible. Too low and you'll get unwanted AE pulses. So as long as AE only kicks in when you actually press the throttle and need it, you're not too low. In nathanhardy's case I'd raise it to about 50 cause I see multiple AE pulses being added with very little throttle movement causing the AFR to go too rich. Another trick that I've found to avoiding multiple AE events during a single throttle press is to set the accel taper time longer like .7s. Ultimately, you have to experiment with the AE curve and all the other AE parameters to get it to work as good as you can. And keep in mind that while the logs are essential to tuning, the last word should be seat-of-the pants feel. Otherwise, you may be chasing your tail trying to get a perfect AFR that stays within .1 of the target during throttle stabs.

I was talking about the ideal gas MAT table. I'd leave the MAT CLT table as is for now and only use that a little bit when dealing with heat-soaked hot starts. I did see that your EGO correction is always at 100 (meaning that it's not correcting at all). Again, I would get that working. Probably with PID.

-Alex

[nathanhardy]

For time-based AE, I'd set TPS dot as low as possible. Too low and you'll get unwanted AE pulses. So as long as AE only kicks in when you actually press the throttle and need it, you're not too low. In nathanhardy's case I'd raise it to about 50 cause I see multiple AE pulses being added with very little throttle movement causing the AFR to go too rich. Another trick that I've found to avoiding multiple AE events during a single throttle press is to set the accel taper time longer like .7s. Ultimately, you have to experiment with the AE curve and all the other AE parameters to get it to work as good as you can. And keep in mind that while the logs are essential to tuning, the last word should be seat-of-the pants feel. Otherwise, you may be chasing your tail trying to get a perfect AFR that stays within .1 of the target during throttle stabs.

I was talking about the ideal gas MAT table. I'd leave the MAT CLT table as is for now and only use that a little bit when dealing with heat-soaked hot starts. I did see that your EGO correction is always at 100 (meaning that it's not correcting at all). Again, I would get that working. Probably with PID.

-Alex

Thanks Alex I tried tuning my accel a little tonight by turning up the threshold to 80 so about what you said I also add about 2 ms to the whole scale it didn't like it, it buck like a bronco! its weird no matter what I do unless I set it high on the scale I get a lean spike id say a mil sec then it goes rich...on the gas law scale I assume you'd raise the scale throughout? so ego isn't working huh that's weird I'm pretty sure its enabled any ideas why it wouldn't be working? when I've turn up p it doesn't like it above 50

everyone is welcome!

[nathanhardy]

also alex since im running high z style injector that means I turn off pmw current limiting right mine is on but set to 100 then 25.6 then 66

[16vboost]

Please post a current data log and matching tune file. Try to capture the problem in the log and tell us where to look for it.

Yes high-Z or high impedance injectors don't need current limiting. Please set that feature to "off". You're injectors aren't firing at low pulse widths and I'm wondering if this has something to do with it.

[nathanhardy]

okay I turned off pwm limiting for the injectors as well as the ego correction and drove around it seem the same maybe a little better but not much.. I think my afr table needs work its getting rich to fast in the table. I didn't have any issues till I got back to my street and was behind a slow car 2279 in the log! then it bucked all the way up unless I clutched it and let it idle. I also need advice on setting my over run fuel cut I change it but I think I need to set it to come on right below idle.