E85 Target AFR's

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MWPau
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E85 Target AFR's

Post by MWPau »

Hi all,

There is a lot of information around on target AFRs for petrol, but i'm having trouble finding much for E85.
Can we use this thread to share tables and ideas on how we should tune for E85?

I'll start...

Toyota 5S-GTE (I4, 2.2L, 10.5:1 CR, smallish turbo), street driven:
Image
(petrol stoic based E85 AFRs).

Looks good, looks bad, suggestions?
Last edited by MWPau on Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Toyota Celica GT4/Alltrac with 5S-GTE stroker (2.2L I4 turbo, high CR) on E85 w/FlexFuel.
MS3 + MS3X + KnockBoard + RTC + BT + DIY CAN-IO-Board + DIY CAN Digital Dash.
elutionsdesign
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by elutionsdesign »

Once you transition to a different fuel (ethanol, methanol) it can get confusing looking at gasoline AFR. I suggest you switch to lambda readings since that is what the WBO2 is measuring anyway. Lambda is lambda no matter what fuel. But yes, that appears to be an acceptable AFR table for gasoline.
Graduate of EFI University.

I build, repair, install and tune Megasquirt systems in North Dakota and beyond!
Rick Finsta
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by Rick Finsta »

Do you mind posting up your hp and tq readings if you have them, and your idle speed and MAP at idle? At least circling the idle area and cruise areas would be nice for comparison. I'm finding mine likes less fuel at cruise but builds a lot more heat so I'll need to find a balance. At idle mine really doesn't like to go leaner than 12.9:1 but I'm still playing with spark timing to see if I can find a higher AFR sweet spot.

And on the contrary, since gasoline scale AFR seems to be the most universally used for E85 tuning (especially in the carbureted world), I think keeping the table in that scale is fine.

I'll post mine up later today but I'm still in the preliminary tuning stages and don't have track time to get my WOT tuned, especially at >5500rpm.
Red_bull
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by Red_bull »

Have a look here

http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/e85-et ... s-afr.html

I didn't check all values if they are facts but they might help you

Here are some common AFR conversions(Gas AFR on left, e85 on right):

18.0:1=12.000
17.5:1=11.666
17.0:1=11.333
16.5:1=11.000
16.0:1=10.666
15.5:1=10.333
15.0:1=10.000
14.5:1=9.666
14.0:1=9.333
13.5:1=9.000
13.0:1=8.666
12.5:1=8.333
12.0:1=8.000
11.5:1=7.666
11.0:1=7.333
MWPau
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by MWPau »

Rick Finsta wrote:Do you mind posting up your hp and tq readings if you have them, and your idle speed and MAP at idle? At least circling the idle area and cruise areas would be nice for comparison. I'm finding mine likes less fuel at cruise but builds a lot more heat so I'll need to find a balance. At idle mine really doesn't like to go leaner than 12.9:1 but I'm still playing with spark timing to see if I can find a higher AFR sweet spot.
Its a rather unique new engine that hasnt been on a dyno yet.
So I have no reference, or even the slightest idea where peak torque or HP are yet.
Idle is currently set at 1000rpm, and does so at ~75kpa.
And on the contrary, since gasoline scale AFR seems to be the most universally used for E85 tuning (especially in the carbureted world), I think keeping the table in that scale is fine.
Agreed.
The petrol AFR multiplier is are what the majority of people are the most familiar with, and handling lambda values isn't as nice.
Toyota Celica GT4/Alltrac with 5S-GTE stroker (2.2L I4 turbo, high CR) on E85 w/FlexFuel.
MS3 + MS3X + KnockBoard + RTC + BT + DIY CAN-IO-Board + DIY CAN Digital Dash.
Rick Finsta
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by Rick Finsta »

That's what I figured based on the bins in that area. Here is my very rough table; no WOT passes yet. Engine is a 362cid Olds, iron heads at 11.53:1 static CR. 466hp @6000rpm and 458lb./ft. @4700rpm. Cruise at 45-55mph is in the 2700-3500rpm/40-45kPa region, and idle is at 900rpm and 60-65kPa. Upon throttle closing for decel it goes down to 30kPa or so. I'll throw my VE table in as well, but this is also a work in progress - I smoothed it out manually and won't get another chance to check my logs and see what's what until this weekend. It has only been tuned into the 5000rpm/90kPa region. Now I can start getting into higher throttle hits further into the 6K range but I wanted to have a safe baseline from which to interpolate.

Image

Image

Just looking at it now I think I want to drop the WOT bin at 4200 and 4900 to 11.8 just to be safe for my first few hits, as my converter stalls around 4500rpm or so.

I know I said it in the other thread, but with EFI this thing seems to run way leaner in cruise than it did with a well-tuned custom carburetor (which might be obvious to those who have been around EFI for awhile). I am so used to blipping the throttle to clear the plugs upon decel that I find myself doing it and going pig rich because of TPS based AE! :oops:

I'd love if you could run this by your guru and see what he says! :yeah!:

ETA: I meant to say that the 12.9 number was with my ignition timing accidentally locked out at 20* (I set it to fixed to check my timing light and hardware latency and forgot to turn it back to the table) so my numbers are much leaner now with a little more idle advance.
MWPau
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by MWPau »

Its just a guy on another forum.
Im not going to bug him further about other peoples tunes, im sure you understand.
Toyota Celica GT4/Alltrac with 5S-GTE stroker (2.2L I4 turbo, high CR) on E85 w/FlexFuel.
MS3 + MS3X + KnockBoard + RTC + BT + DIY CAN-IO-Board + DIY CAN Digital Dash.
Rick Finsta
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by Rick Finsta »

Gotcha I'll run it by the hive mind over on YB.
MWPau
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by MWPau »

Thanks, theres some interesting reading in there.
Toyota Celica GT4/Alltrac with 5S-GTE stroker (2.2L I4 turbo, high CR) on E85 w/FlexFuel.
MS3 + MS3X + KnockBoard + RTC + BT + DIY CAN-IO-Board + DIY CAN Digital Dash.
Raymond_B
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by Raymond_B »

elutionsdesign wrote:Once you transition to a different fuel (ethanol, methanol) it can get confusing looking at gasoline AFR. I suggest you switch to lambda readings since that is what the WBO2 is measuring anyway. Lambda is lambda no matter what fuel. But yes, that appears to be an acceptable AFR table for gasoline.
When you say "switch to lambda readings" do you simply mean setting up an additional gauge in TS or perhaps changing the view on your WBO2's display? Or is there a way to change from AFR to Lambda for the TunerStudio AFR Table view ?
1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
http://www.buildpics.org/
Rick Finsta
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by Rick Finsta »

I seem to remember Phil saying that there was a way to do it with a custom .ini file. Personally, I just have it in a big yellow box on my dashboard/gauge screen.

Also, I think this is pertinent to this thread. For cranking PW I was gingerly working upwards as I didn't want to flood the engine. I found my engine wants a 12mS+ PW to fire at 55*F. That is with the curve set at 525% at 70*F and 850% at 40*F. Yeah, sadly I have already had the opportunity this fall to tune a 40*F startup... :cry:

Anyways, I found E85 wants more than twice the cranking fuel as when I first ran my engine on gasoline.
Magovit
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by Magovit »

Hi,

I have used e85 in street customized turbo cars in the last 10 years.
In my last project vw AP 1.6 11.0:1 300kpa boost ms3x + knock sensor i have used the tables below.

knock
Image

Lambda
Image

Image
335i //M
Raymond_B
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by Raymond_B »

Can you share how you set up "Lambda Table 1" ?
1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
http://www.buildpics.org/
MWPau
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by MWPau »

Raymond_B wrote:Can you share how you set up "Lambda Table 1" ?
I would be interested in knowing too.
Or even better... attach the MSQ? :RTFM:
Toyota Celica GT4/Alltrac with 5S-GTE stroker (2.2L I4 turbo, high CR) on E85 w/FlexFuel.
MS3 + MS3X + KnockBoard + RTC + BT + DIY CAN-IO-Board + DIY CAN Digital Dash.
elutionsdesign
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by elutionsdesign »

Magovit, nice! I can tell by the ignition table that thing runs strong!
Graduate of EFI University.

I build, repair, install and tune Megasquirt systems in North Dakota and beyond!
elutionsdesign
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by elutionsdesign »

Can you share how you set up "Lambda Table 1"
MS3, Project, Project Properties, Settings, Oxygen Sensor / Display, Wideband - Lambda.

MS2, Project, Project Properties, Settings, Oxygen Sensor / Display, Lambda.
Graduate of EFI University.

I build, repair, install and tune Megasquirt systems in North Dakota and beyond!
Raymond_B
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by Raymond_B »

Thank you!
1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
http://www.buildpics.org/
TJM
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by TJM »

Not intending to hijack the thread... and it's sort of relevent

We will be starting our Motor, next weekend, using E85.

Familiar with the fuel, and this motor was in carburetor-ed using this fuel, but new with EFI .

Have received advice from DIY to bring the REQ Fuel to 18!! .. and add 48% more pulse width across the board.

Not shocked with the Pulse Widths but the REQ Fuel can be made 18 only by fiddling with AFR ?

But wonder how others did on first starts?
\
• Chev. Small Block, Gen I, 383cu in [ 6,276cc] V8 . 11.5:1 comp
• MS2 w/MS3 daughter board / V3.0 .
• Comp cam #12-527-5, 258 int./264 exh., Mechanical flat tappet
• Fuel only for this purpose.
• Bosch 650cc, 65lb/hr. @43. 5 PSI [ 0 280 158 298, 7-30-04 -13-030423, DR3V-AA, FoMoCo B556V ]
• Edlebrock 3878 4-barrel throttle body on single plane Victor Jr. intake with Delphi/GM IAC, and GM TPS.
• Standalone HEI 4 pin ...
• 60-2 toothed wheel and hall sensor for RPM input only.
• Using single LC-2
MWPau
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by MWPau »

I just loaded a normal petrol/gas tune, used the req fuel calculator with normal values, and started it :)
Crank & WUE was enough to get it going, and amazingly keep it idling (closed-loop) with no issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJcjQJBM20o
Im guessing i was just really lucky it was that easy though.
Toyota Celica GT4/Alltrac with 5S-GTE stroker (2.2L I4 turbo, high CR) on E85 w/FlexFuel.
MS3 + MS3X + KnockBoard + RTC + BT + DIY CAN-IO-Board + DIY CAN Digital Dash.
Rick Finsta
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Re: E85 Target AFR's

Post by Rick Finsta »

TJM that is very similar to my combination but with better flowing heads and intake and a slightly larger cam so it will be thirsty for sure. I am at 12.2 for my req_fuel with two squirts alternating on the same size injectors as you are running (Mine were flowed at 85% DC and 43.5psi for 58.5 lb./hr. so take the 65lb./hr. rating with a grain of salt).

Be aware I am needing HUGE cranking PW to fire it so don't be afraid to give it over 500% at 70*F or 700%+ at 40-50*F.

I want to try increasing the number of injections to get better fuel distribution but so far no dice at lower PW. She idles at 60-65kPa and about 3.8mS right now giving me about 13.2 AFR on the gas scale (so like .90 lambda?).

Not fully tuned but might get you started.
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