engine constance ms1

[racerron]

does my settings look correct? i have a 410 ci windsor with 160lb injectors on e85 gas. my ms1 3.0 board i think has the q1 and q9 resistor soldered in for the flyback.

this is a link to the ms1 board http://msextra.com/doc/general/pix/v3components.gif

[Rick Finsta]

Nothing jumps out to me as incorrect. Once you get the engine running and idling you'll need to tune your PWM parameters (unless you are using data from the manufacturer).

Idle tuning might well be difficult with a req_fuel of 5.5 - those injectors are huge. Can you give us motor specs? NA/forced induction, cam, heads, HP, max RPM, etc.?

[racerron]

the engine has a 95 mm turbo.650 lift solid roller camshaft 270 duration: @ .50 lift 114 LSA.planning on spinning the motor to around 6500 to 7000 .I don't know if that's too high.the engine is a dart 4bolt splayed cap block Oliver rods Diamond 9.5 compression ratio.is the PWM the fuel table that you're talking about.I've seen some people raise the required fuel on e85 gas does that mean that the numbers on your ve table will end up lower? and when doing the Autotune while driving does most people leave it on normal or do they put it on easy for changing the numbers on the ve table? the horsepower level I'm shooting for is 1200 horsepower and I run the p38 John kasse heads.I had another question after taking the oil pan off and noticing some flaking on the bearings my engine was running a little lean.how does most people do the auto tuning without leaning out the motor causing damage.

[Rick Finsta]

The best thing to do is post your tune file (.msq) for us to look at.

The req_fuel is the base number that MS uses to calculate fuel requirements. When you input your information into the calculator (the pop-up box when you hit the "required fuel" bottom on the screen you posted) use 9.7-9.8 for the Stoich AFR if you are running E85. This will scale req_fuel to E85, and then you can tune using gasoline scale AFRs or lambda on your "target AFR" table.

PWM parameters are on the screen you posted. You are telling the ECU how long it takes before your injectors start squirting fuel, how that changes with voltage, and what PWM duty cycle will keep the injectors fully open after your PWM time is reached. This is all assuming you are running low-z injectors (though I know there are high-z 160s out there now). Some of the older low-z 160s are notoriously bad at low PW (very nonlinear) and hard to tune in a batch system at idle. But you'll need the fuel flow for sure it sounds like!

The "Fuel Table" is your VE table (volumetric efficiency = VE). Basically, the VE Table is a collection of MAP versus RPM areas that tell the ECU to give the engine a certain percentage of your req_fuel under different conditions, and all other modifiers are added on top of that (warm-up, acceleration, etc.). So at idle you don't need much fuel at all, and your idle VE might be down around, say 30. Think of this as 30% of your req_fuel which in your case will have you idling at less than 2mS of pulsewidth. At full boost and RPM it might be at, say 205. Think of this as 205% of your req_fuel or a 11.3mS pulsewidth (there is more to it than that but it is just to give you the idea of the relationship). So yes, a higher req_fuel will mean lower numbers on the VE table will give the same PW, and vice versa.

For an example, my req_fuel on my normally-aspirated small block Olds V8 running E85 and 65lb/hr injectors (with a req_fuel of 12.2) is about 3.8mS, and at WOT it is in the high teens. This corresponds with VE values of around 35 at idle and 125 at WOT and high RPM. This is just an example, not a target or anything, but it illustrates the relationship.

I personally tune VEAL by setting it to "very easy" at first, then just revving the engine around in neutral. Get some numbers to show your baseline is good, then smooth the VE table. Then you can start your tuning drives and as the numbers stop changing so much you can increase the cell change resistance. Make sure you have a reasonable target AFR table, and that your EGO controller has the authority to make decent changes at first. Just watch for rich spots reading lean and such or the EGO correction can get pretty crazy pretty fast, and in the wrong direction.

Again posting your tune will help immensely.

[racerron]

where should I have my ego correction at.and where do you have your controller authority percentage at.when I get home tonight I will post everything that I can find on my tune on this forum.I know when I've been out on the road just cruising around at 70 kPa the engine runs from 10 up to 14 and surges back and forth even though I have the Auto Tune running

[racerron]

I posted my tune on another website.its called theturboforums.com and its under tuneing my username is racerron and the title of the thread is sharing my fuel table.

[racerron]

what does veal stand for

[racerron]

here is some tuning pictures



this picture (lambda sensor target. what is this for?

slipped a picture of the project mustang.

[racerron]

how come your required fuel is 12.5 and mine is only 5.5

[kjones6039]

what does veal stand for

Volumetric Efficiency Analyze Live

Or, more simply...... VE Analyze Live

Ken

[Rick Finsta]

how come your required fuel is 12.5 and mine is only 5.5

Smaller injectors mean more PW to flow the same fuel. My injectors are almost 1/3 the size of yours, so even with less than 1/2 the power output on the same fuel, mine need to be open longer to flow the necessary fuel. Plus, at idle, our cars likely have similar fuel needs, whereas yours starts needing a lot more fuel only when getting into boost. So my 65lb/hr injectors at 3.8mS and your 160s at 1.6mS at idle are probably both flowing about the same amount of fuel (depending on dead times and such). This all assumes you put the correct constants into the calculator for req_fuel, of course.

10% controller authority is probably a good starting point, but again, you need to worry about overly rich reading as really lean (the O2 sensor can't tell the difference). If you smell fuel in the exhaust at any point and your O2 sensor is reading lean, you might have to manually adjust those bins down on your VE table. Are you burning the tune to the ECU before shutting the car off after running autotune (VEAL)? The computer can't do everything, so the tuner needs to exercise good judgement. To give you a frame of reference for why I asked this; if your table was off by 20% and you only let the EGO correction move it by 2% or 5%, it will take you a lot of autotuning to get the VE table dialed in. If you give it larger authority, it will get there more quickly, BUT there is a better chance of the false rich/lean issue causing the ECU to keep adding fuel when there is already too much and flooding the engine. TANSTAAFL.

Posting a datalog and .msq is the next step. To help out we need to see where the engine is at idle and cruise, and what kind of EGO correction is occurring in the log. It also helps us see other anomalies.

That's a great looking project car!

[racerron]

boy you are one smart guy about these ms1. yes i am burning the tune to the ecu. there is two different buttons for this one says apply and the other says save to ECU which one? i don't know how to move my mega log viewer to this site . all i can do is take a picture of it.

[racerron]

believe it or not the engine idles pretty good at around 900 to 1000 considering I'm running 160 pound injectors .what are those lambda sensor targets for?

[elutionsdesign]

Drop your controller step size down to 1% in the EGO control, that will solve the surging or at least a lot of it. Appears you need help with your rpm, 267100 seems a bit higher than that motor can spin.

[Rick Finsta]

When you are writing a post, look below the text box and you'll see a tab you can select that says "upload attachment." The maximum is 1Mb if I recall, so you just need to make sure your datalog is less than that and you can put that and your tune file right in your post. If you right click in the area with all the lines in megalogviewer you have an option to delete before or after a marker (you can set the marker with a left click before right clicking) and then delete parts of the log you don't need to get the size smaller if necessary. The tune file will be called "current tune.msq" so rename it to something like "badass ford motor.msq" before you upload it or you'll get an error message. Both are found in your My Documents in a Tuner Studio Projects folder, and then a subfolder for whatever your project name is. The tune is right in that directory, and the datalogs are in a subfolder called datalogs.

The lambda sensor targets are settings for how the ECU uses your target AFR table. For instance, you have yours set so that when you are using VE Table 1 (which you appear to be) it is applying EGO control to that table based on AFR Target Table 1 (that's what you have selected). You can also set it so that the controller has less authority to make changes over a certain kPa setting (so if you wanted to make sure that it doesn't have as much authority in boost or something) or otherwise tell it when it should and should not be trying to correct to your AFR Targets. So if you will actually see more than 255kPa in boost, then in your settings the controller authority would go from 10% down to the 5% you have there. If you don't get to that high pressure, then it will never do anything as you haven't hit the trigger point.

Think of it this way - Your VE Table is how much fuel you've told the ECU to give the engine. If the engine needs more or less fuel to get to the AFR you have in your AFR Target table at that same point, the EGO correction adds or subtracts fuel to get you there. The VEAL is just taking those corrections and then applying them to the table so the EGO correction becomes smaller and smaller until there isn't any correction (well, a very small correction) - at that point the VE table is giving the engine exactly what it needs to hit the AFR you wanted for that area of the engine's operation.

Tuning is an iterative process and the VEAL (autotuning) simply automates part of it. Instead of looking at the logs and applying the correction from the EGO Correction to the VE Table, it does it in real time.

No voodoo here - it is the same as tuning a carburetor in that you need to know what the jets, bleeds, and adjustment screws do so you can give the engine what it wants. Here you just need to know what the settings do.

If you are having sync issues (the high RPM spike) then we might ask for a tooth log - might want to read up on that in the manual or play around a bit.

[racerron]

there's a lot of stuff there to digest what you said but I think I got most of it.one thing that was kind of funny that someone else said on another forum is that he'd rather tell someone how to fish then catch the fish for them.tonight when I get home I'll try that file loaded on this site for you to view and maybe if you don't mind I would y not like to talk to you when you get some free time well I'm looking at my current tune on tuner Studio

[kjones6039]

some flaking on the bearings

I would be concerned about that way before I worried about tuning!!!!

If it's making metal, it sounds like time for the motor to come apart!!!!

IMHO of course.............

Ken

[racerron]

here is my file. that did not work. i did something wrong.

[kjones6039]

Screen shots are generally not very helpful. Can you post your msq and the msl that the screen shot came from?

Ken

[racerron]

some flaking on the bearings

I would be concerned about that way before I worried about tuning!!!!

If it's making metal, it sounds like time for the motor to come apart!!!!

the flaking on the bearings is from the motor leaning out I put a new set of bearings in the motor.