Moving to itb on vw 16v

[Pb81]

Hello everyone, i have an vw mk3 golf with 2.0 16v abf engine.
The car used to run just fine with ms2 setup and msextra 3.0.3 fw, but now i decided to go further, so engine rebuilt, 11.8cr on wiseco forged pistons, bmw 1200 itb, 330cc injectors, TT288 hydro cam, head works with std valves, light flywheel and all balanced.
Ms was installed by a professional tuner but since i did all the build by myself i want to keep on this way and id really like some advice before to start and blow the engine
I could start it with old intake & msq setup and had a little break in session without going over 5.5k, where it looks it started pinking on light loads too.
Ve too worked, of course not perfect but not even dangerous, i can say i have a good starting point then.
Once the itb and injectors will be installed, which are the steps i should follow before and after started the engine?
Any advice is welcome, thanks!

[elutionsdesign]

Personally I'd update the firmware first, then the ignition table should need less timing with an increase in static CR so I'd edit that. I'd change over to ITB mode for both the fuel and ignition tables and the base of any tune start with a rock solid idle so that's the first thing to get correct.

[Pb81]

Talking about advance i'd go with a -10° on fields over 5k rpm to be safe and start from there. I dont have idea if there's a safer tecnique, but basing on my readings, on theory then, a maximum advance around 20-25° should be safe for 99% of cases, do you confirm?

Algorithm, why not pure Alpha-n? Car is track use only, is that relevant? In any case, is there some way of converting tables easier than Excel, logs and lot of work?

Idle, i have two ways in my mind, first one is with pwm idle valve, holes on itb's and vacum tubing connected to an hub connected to the valve. Pros i have more control on idle, cons it could be difficult to set up and i would avoid interconnecting intake runners for any reason.
Second one, idle screw on ITB's. It's easier to set up, especially with my cams that will require idle around 1.5k rpm anyway.

Injectors, i swap stock VW injectors with Bosch 0280158038 units, high impedance. Is it only about cabling them in the right polarity? My car has a weird fuel rail, but has 5 wires, i guess are like 4 positives and a single common negative, right?


Thanks, in the meantime i will

[elutionsdesign]

20-25 would be a good place to start, you'll certainly want a steady state dyno to get MBT at minimum timing. You could certainly do pure alpha-n but like speed density has poor fueling resolution at high MAP in an ITB application alpha-n has poor fueling resolution at low TP which can affect throttle response and accel enrichment. ITB mode successfully marries the two.

Five wires would be correct, one +12V power and four back to the ECU for injector operation (grounding). Injectors can be wired either way, no polarity.

[Pb81]

Just curious, how much do you pay in the USA for a day on rolling road?

[mickeymarrows]

Are your injectors currently wired for sequential injection?

My initial ABF setup had them setup for batch fire but then when I went from the stock manifold to a short runner I rewired the injectors for sequential, it made the idle much smoother and easier to tune. I still run the single ABF throttle body, but dumped the idle valve and used an idle stop screw instead. Less to go wrong at the track.

[suberimakuri]

Agree, always dump idle valves and just wind idle stop a little bit on ITB and single throttle track cars here.

[Pb81]

I dont know actually, they sold me the ecu as a p&p unit, installation was included. Is there any way to find it out from the board or the msq?
For the idle, i was hoping for this kind of advices

[mickeymarrows]

I'll have a look at your msq when I get home tonight, it'll be pretty clear under general settings.

There's quite a few people on the Club GTI forum who run ABF's on megasquirt, both stock inlets and throttle bodies. You may find it easier to use someone elses Alpha-N msq as a starting point as oppose to converting your SD one..

[Pb81]

Many thanks! I did post on clubGti, but of course people is afraid of giving their spark tables away, dangerous.
Here some picture of the babies

[elutionsdesign]

Cute babies!

[mickeymarrows]

Is that your own manifold or a Bogg Brothers... neat welding. I see why you're using the wierd ABF fuel rail now too.

[Pb81]

It's my own, i made the pieces and taken it to a welder, i good one i have to say, still have to match the inside between tubes and manifold.
The fuel rail i'm using is the one from 1.8T engines, it will need some fabrications too as the fixings needs to be moved, but the stock abf one is rubbish, it comes with unusable and unchangeable EV8 injectors.
Vacuum circuit is missing too.. the more you do the more you have still left to do

[mickeymarrows]

It's my own, i made the pieces and taken it to a welder, i good one i have to say, still have to match the inside between tubes and manifold.
The fuel rail i'm using is the one from 1.8T engines, it will need some fabrications too as the fixings needs to be moved, but the stock abf one is rubbish, it comes with unusable and unchangeable EV8 injectors.
Vacuum circuit is missing too.. the more you do the more you have still left to do

Who siad the ABF rail was rubbish? it might be unusual, but its very neat and self contained and larger injectors for it are readily and cheaply available.. I have 283cc injectors in mine (stock are 220ish) there are 330's available too..

[Pb81]

I didn't mean to offend the stock rail, buit here in italy is IMPOSSIBLE to source uprated injectors for this rail, more over i wanted to put some distance between valves and injectors to allow for a better mixture at higher rpms.
But i agree that is a very clean and well engineered project , i can say the same for the whole engine actually.

[mickeymarrows]

Ahh I understand now and looking at the photos I see the injectors in the throttle bodies rather than in the flange.. apologies.

If you're going to Alph-N do you still need vacuum (MAP) or are you hoping to stick with SD?

I'm interested as your effectively doing exactly what I've been considering doing for years For me its difficult to justify the jump to throttle bodies when I have my ABF running so well with sequential COP spark and sequential injection

[Pb81]

I work in IT, and as we all say "Never touch a running system".
That said, was the same for me.. but everything started that d*** day i found a HUGE deal on head parts (cams, lifters, springs etc etc).
I hope that once launched next to 8krpm everything would start making sense to me
Vacuum lines are for fuel pressure regulator and brake servo at least, but i still have to found a source for "aftermarket" vacuum nipples, my itbs dont have them.

But in your case, if you can afford you can source jenvey units, almost ready to fit. I've seen stock ABF engine making close to 180bhp just with exhaust, map and itbs.
Or even better and less expensive, mine did 162bhp only with upgraded exhaust line and an optimized stock airbox and ported throttle body, not even a remap.
Is a very good engine, is worth to make it express at its best.

Which gearbox are you running?

[mickeymarrows]

Ive only just read your MSQ file from your first post.

I'm not sure if something got corrupted when I opened it, but basic settings suggest your ABF is 350cc and your injectors have a flow rate of zero giving a required fuel of 4. Is that what you really run?

As for injection, it appears you're set up for batch firing, not sequential..


as for gearbox, I've run various 020 gearboxes, currently a stock 82 GTI, but I also have a 1980 FM gearbox with a Hor differential

[Pb81]

It could be, i've messed it a little with reqfuel in offline mode i guess.
For the gearboxes so you already run different ratios? It helps a lot, stock ratio for ABF would fit a Veyron.
Some updates

[Mygolfisslow]

I'm following along. New to forum old hat at ms. Looking to switch to itb mode.


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