Ignition offset angle ?'s

[ANTI VENOM]

TS MS v2.6.04
SBC with HEI distributor

Hi I'm Anti Venom, yes I'm new. I did my best to put this in the correct section, please advise if I was wrong.
I just started my engine and I guess I'm not getting the offset angle concept. Here's where I'm at. I start engine, point the timing light at it, dial it back and read it. Let's say timing light says 15 degrees. I go to TS trigger wizard and TRY to do as it suggests to "match the above reading with the timing light". I never seem to be able to get it to change much. As I'm pushing the up/down arrows I can hear the engine changing but the "above" number really doesn't change much. It certainly isn't linear. If I check timing again, it has definitely moved. Now lets just say the timing light shows 5 degrees. Should I go back to TS trigger wizard and try to get the "above" number to change to 5? I really don't have a data log of this as I'm not sure how easy it would be to follow in a log. If it is possible please provide some tips on what I should be logging. TIA

2015-07-23_383_LT1.msq

[billr]

Put the dial-back light out to pasture and get a simple light, they are much easier to use (less confusing). Dial-back really has no benefit now that we are using software to set ignition curves, not vacuum-advance and centrifugal weights.

[ANTI VENOM]

I've read through some posts and see that some guys are saying that those lights are not accurate. This is my own light, and it has always served well in the past. My balancer doesn't have timing marks or tape and neither does my pointer. (long story) Sure I can get timing tape and a new light, but I'm trying to figure out the software side. Maybe it's my light. I'll borrow a friends and see.

[billr]

You don't need much in the way of timing marks, just one on the dampener that matches one somewhere on the engine at #1 TDC. Put those anywhere it is convenient to read with a light. Just some chalk marks will be OK for most purposes.

Edit: your dial-back light can probably be used in the future, but get the engine timing correct using a simple light first, then experiment with the dial-back light to figure out how to use it correctly knowing what the engine timing and marks really are. Don't frustrate yourself (and possibly damage the engine) with the harder-to-use dial-back light during this initial MS install; that's all I'm urging here.

[ANTI VENOM]

I have a mark on both damper and block at TDC on #1. I haven't tried to "fix" the timing in TS. Is that something I should consider? It seems I am fighting several problems at one time. My LC-2 WB EGO is either at 12 or 14.8 or wildly bouncing between them. The WB is calibrated and reads 14.8 with the engine off. I just want to get it to idle smooth so that I can get the timing under control. Any thoughts on using the minimum corrections to get a base line?

The attached log is the car at idle or light throttle sitting in the shop.

2015-07-23_13.50.01.msl

[billr]

Yes, use the "fixed timing" in TS to verify TS and the crank/light correlate! You can use "zero" for the fixed and the light should flash at TDC every time; run the rpm up all the way and see that it doesn't drift from TDC much (a degree or so is acceptable, I think). Don't worry about AFRs or how crappy the engine might be running because of fueling or that TDC timing; the spark timing should still be stable with no sync loss.

[ANTI VENOM]

I triple checked the #1 TDC and distributor orientation. I can only get the engine to run if I put the timing at about 50 degrees fixed. The timing light verifies that. I fattened up the mixture and got it to run. What works best is to advance the timing at the distributor a bunch and let the timing table do it's thing. I just turn the distributor for max vacuum and idle speed and it seems to idle sorta smooth. Something is a miss. No pun intended.

[billr]

I have no experience with that "GM bypass on D16", but the timing light should tell the real story, no matter what triggering/timing scheme is used. It seems very unlikely that the engine (any engine!) will only run with spark timing at 50 deg. BTDC, so I would get somebody else to thoroughly check your procedure for determining that. "Triple checking", and more, often is not effective. I find it is human nature to "see" things as we know they are supposed to be, not the way they really are.

[kaeman]

I know a few guys that had engines running at 50 degrees initial timing..... every one of those guys had rubber mounted harmonic dampers and the outer ring had slipped. Check that your damper ring and timing mark are still in the correct location. Then check your timing again.
If your o2 sensor is reading 14.8 with the engine off, is that after its been run or before its been started for the first time that day, if its the first start and reads 14.8 before starting then your sensor is not calibrated, you need to do a free air calibration, over night the air in your exhaust should be equal to the outside air, therefore the o2 reading should be more than 22 to 1. Good luck

[ANTI VENOM]

Kaeman, thanks for the response. I'm afraid I do have a dampener with elastomer. I bought a different one but it hit the crossmember. I will check it or replace it.

On to the O2 sensor. I calibrated it and it says 14.8 after is sits all night. I was trying to wrap my mind around that number as it is stoich but that's what it reads in free air. Thanks for the info. It's calibrated, but I believe that when I changed TS versions that I need to input some more data. I found that I need to go and unlock the calibrations, and then select the O2 sensor and then I can tell it what voltage equates to what AFR. Innovate said, 0v=7.35AFR and 5v=22.39.
I thought I set this all up with the old version of TS, but maybe it doesn't transfer. I am working now and this is all theory. I will try some things soon and let you guys know what I have found. Thanks for all the help.

Anti

[ANTI VENOM]

Indeed, the wideband was not setup properly in TS. Even though wideband is selected in the EGO section, you must unlock the calibrations and define your wideband there also. Unfortunately, you cannot select an LC2 sensor and set your voltages/AFR. I will just assume at this time that it is set the way that Innovate said.

I believe I now have a handle on how the ignition offset page works. I will try to explain it, maybe it will help someone. Let's hope I know what I'm talking about.
In the trigger wizard page, the "advance degrees" is what you have programmed into your ignition table. Now you can turn your distributor to get the timing light readings to match the advance degrees. Once you get kinda close then you can fine tune it with the offset angle. If your timing light shows 30 degrees BTDC and you put 10 into the offset box, the timing light will now show 20 degrees.

My idle is pretty stable and soon I will try to get some driving in. I WILL have more questions. Thanks, Anti.

[billr]

No, you still aren't understanding that trigger offset routine. With a single coil and dizzy you want to set the dizzy so that the rotor points, as best possible, to the desired dizzy cap tower throughout the anticipated advance range. You are probably using a dizzy with centrifugal advance locked-out (certainly should be!) so getting that rotor to point right is a bit tougher and less precise than the old days, when the rotor would advance its position right in sync with the ignition advance. One trick is to cut a window in a cap and shine the timing light in there to see where the rotor is pointing as the engine runs. Once you get the dizzy rotor pointing as best possible, leave the dizzy alone and make the actual timing agree with the TS/MS values by using that trigger offset. The offset will handle up to 180 degrees of variation, so should be able to accommodate any position the dizzy needs to be in. If you move the dizzy around, don't have it pointing towards the correct cap tower as close as possible, you risk getting a weaker spark and, even worse, cross-firing to the wrong cylinder.