AFR with methanol

[racerron]

My engine build is a 410 cubic inch Windsor motor that runs on methanol non intercooled 500 pound Billet atomizer injectors. I have the innovative lc2 wideband O2 sensor What's a good air to fuel ratio to start with ( idle ,above idle, cruising, from 100 to 200 kPa , from 200 to 300 kPa)

[racerron]

I'm using the gasoline scale. I've heard some people say 8.0 AFR during full Boost roughly 250 kPa and higher.

[Peter Florance]

You've got to research the lambda for methanol and multiply that# by 14.7 to read it on your wideband.
13.0 is my guess

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[racerron]

13.0 afr is to lean. i was running 11.5 to 12 afr and my egt's were 1300-1400 degrees. i burned up three ground straps on my spark plugs. now im at 10 afr and the egts are 1150 to 1200 degrees at max boost.

[davcol]

I am guessing you need a little bit ignition timing you probably too retard when switch over, with methanol i think it allow more igniting timing to be use because of its slower burn rate

[Peter Florance]

I am guessing you need a little bit ignition timing you probably too retard when switch over, with methanol i think it allow more igniting timing to be use because of its slower burn rate

^This

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[Peter Florance]

If you haven't been in the dyno and did some sweeps with timing, you're just guessing.

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[racerron]

2016-06-07_06.58.52.msq

oops wrong tune

[racerron]

2016-06-09_22.06.30.msq

check out my timing table

[ArttuH]

I don't have any experience about tuning for methanol but based on quick internet search max power rich lambda for methanol would be 0.62. I understand this means the richest that you want to run under full boost. On gasoline AFR scale (lambda 1.0 = 14.7) that would be about 9.1. So 8.0 on gasoline scale sounds quite rich.

As general note I think that using AFR scale with "alternative" fuels is a mess. It might be fine for your own use if you just know what you are doing. But as soon as you start to discuss with other people confusion will be sure. One talks about gasoline scale, another one about fuel specific scale and third one mixes both in the same sentence and so on...

[whittlebeast]

Art, great point.

[Peter Florance]

I don't have any experience about tuning for methanol but based on quick internet search max power rich lambda for methanol would be 0.62. I understand this means the richest that you want to run under full boost. On gasoline AFR scale (lambda 1.0 = 14.7) that would be about 9.1. So 8.0 on gasoline scale sounds quite rich.

As general note I think that using AFR scale with "alternative" fuels is a mess. It might be fine for your own use if you just know what you are doing. But as soon as you start to discuss with other people confusion will be sure. One talks about gasoline scale, another one about fuel specific scale and third one mixes both in the same sentence and so on...

Yep. I got spoiled working in lambda with MoTeC ecu.
Timing is a similar issue. Who knows if spark angle and latency are correct?
That's why dyno time is a must.

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[ArttuH]

Yep. I got spoiled working in lambda with MoTeC ecu.

Well, I have a strong intention to move using just lambda on MS too. In theory that is quite simple but reality is slightly more challenging. On technical side there is nuicance that AFR still keeps popping up here and there even if you configure the whole project for lambda. But bigger problem is the social aspect i.e. other people. Quite often you will get just just confused look when you start talking about lambda values

[Peter Florance]

Yep. I got spoiled working in lambda with MoTeC ecu.

Well, I have a strong intention to move using just lambda on MS too. In theory that is quite simple but reality is slightly more challenging. On technical side there is nuicance that AFR still keeps popping up here and there even if you configure the whole project for lambda. But bigger problem is the social aspect i.e. other people. Quite often you will get just just confused look when you start talking about lambda values

I think my last attempt using lambda with MSExtra failed at VE Analyze, but that's been a few years ago.

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[kaeman]

why don't you calibrate the sensor to the fuel you are using and then look at the correct afr for that fuel or use the lamda readings, methanol has a stoichiometric ratio of 6.4 according the the setup instructions from innovate.

This information is cut from innovate's lc-1 manual.

The LC-1 is a stand-alone Wideband Controller used to measure the Air/Fuel Ratio (AFR) or
Lambda for an engine. For gasoline-driven engines, the theoretically optimal air fuel ratio is 14.7
pounds of air for every pound of fuel. At this ratio, theoretically, all available oxygen in the air
combines with all available fuel. This ratio is called the stoichiometric ratio. Stoichiometric for
different fuels are as follows:
Gasoline 14.7
LPG (Propane) 15.5
Methanol 6.4
Ethanol 9.0
CNG 17.2
Diesel 14.6
The measurement Lambda is the actual air fuel ratio over the stoichiometric ratio. A Lambda
measurement of “1” equates to the air fuel ratio of 14.7 (for gasoline engines). When Lambda is
less than 1 the engine runs “rich”, i.e., unburned fuel exists in the exhaust stream. If lambda is
greater than 1 the engine runs lean, i.e., free oxygen (02) is present in the exhaust. Depending on
the engine, maximum power is typically delivered when the engine runs slightly rich (for example
at lambda values of 0.8 to 0.9 for most engines). This instrument provides a means to measure
the actual air fuel ratio or lambda in the engine in operation directly from the exhaust. For this a
special wide-band oxygen sensor is used to measure the lambda value derived from the oxygen
content (or lack thereof) of the exhaust gases.

I hope this is helpful. Good Luck

[elutionsdesign]

This isn't his first post on the issue, he's gotten the same recommendations before.

[whittlebeast]

1.0 Lambda really means you ran out of burnable fuel in the combustion chamber at the same time you ran out of oxygen in the combustion chamber.

I work in percentages most of the time as in if the target AFR was 14.7 and the actual AFR was 13, then 13.0/14.7 = .88 or I need to adjust the VE by about 12%

Working in Lambda the numbers would have been .88 Lambda / 1 Lambda target so .88/1 = .88 or I need to adjust the VE by about 12%

It is all the same thing........

Andy

[ol boy]

I'm helping a guy here in Tucson running meth. We switch everything over to true AFR, not some scaled version of gas. I had to mod the ini file to allow for values smaller than 7 in the AFR table. We are shooting for 3.5 to 4.0 AFR. It's hard wrapping your head around the flow rates. 1.2lbs/hp-hr.

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[Peter Florance]

1.0 Lambda really means you ran out of burnable fuel in the combustion chamber at the same time you ran out of oxygen in the combustion chamber.

I work in percentages most of the time as in if the target AFR was 14.7 and the actual AFR was 13, then 13.0/14.7 = .88 or I need to adjust the VE by about 12%

Working in Lambda the numbers would have been .88 Lambda / 1 Lambda target so .88/1 = .88 or I need to adjust the VE by about 12%

It is all the same thing........

Andy

^This

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