true benefit

jhkm12345 · Post by **jhkm12345** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:04 pm

So I've got a fully functional and daily driven v12 project that has been solely tuned by autotune.
It pulls like a train, it idles smooth, gets great gas mileage and after my tuning on the ignition tables, does not knock.

Does anyone have any thoughts as to how much benefit there is to be had from a tuner and a few dyno hours? It's not some high strung build and it's not a turbo...

I want it to run as well as it possibly can but honestly the autotune program made the thing sing like nothing I would have ever imagined. Idles down to 450 rpm silky smooth and AFR's stay right on target all through the rev range.

Whats the consensus on percentage gain with a human dialing it in vs autotune?

nathaninwa · Post by **nathaninwa** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:42 pm

I agree that auto tune does a fantastic job at fuel tuning. What's nice with About a dyno is the ability to see real time the engines timing needs. A few pulls can gather wot timing, it could be knocking, and just not audibly, the tq graph will tell you. Could also be a few degree low leaving some power on the table

Plus if you can steady state the dyno running at cruising speed, you can dial in cruise timing for best mpg

jhkm12345 · Post by **jhkm12345** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:07 pm

MPG... hahaha

I'm getting 29mpg out of a 6 liter v12 pushing a 4500lb car along... no way it gets any better!

I cannot say enough about how much I have enjoyed the process of this build and the addition of megasquirt to my garage. Game changer.
The forum support, the vendor support, and general thrill of it all has been a blast.

gtmdriver · Post by **gtmdriver** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:33 pm

Autotune will do a good job of tuning your VE table to your chosen AFR values but, depending on how you obtained your AFR table your final VE values may still not be optimum and, as already stated, Autotune cannot sort out your ignition timing table.

My Classic VW Beetle conversion is running really well at the moment. Far better than it did on twin carburettors, but I'm still going to get it on a rolling road to fully optimise it.

benckj · Post by **benckj** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:51 pm

I'm not exactly sure what version MS your running but I found on my MSPNPv2 going to the dyno achieved with 3 things;

1/ Confirmed my wideband noisy O2 data which is used for VEAL.
2/ Checked and dialed in knock control as per manual (internal pot adjutments0.
3/ Allowed a Tuner sanity check with all my settings.

The sanity check also gave me an inside to the Tuner world so now when I have an issue I simply walk in with my laptop talk through options and adjust settings. I don't need to throw car on dyno now and the valuable advice is free!

jim

jhkm12345 · Post by **jhkm12345** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:55 pm

well I suppose for a few hundred bucks it has got to be a worthwhile exercise.

Surely I'm not the only new guy in this spot. Has anyone got any figures on what performance gain was achieved from a fully functional and satisfactory car after being tuned at a dyno.

Percentage gains?

nathaninwa · Post by **nathaninwa** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:20 pm

I had one car pick up 50whp from 2* of timing under boost one time and another project come in with 418whp and left with 462. That particular car liked 25* of timing at wot with 26* at 6200 rpm only. Tq graph showed a dip right there. Added the timing and it flattened right out

benckj · Post by **benckj** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:16 pm

My Tuner stated he generally picks up 30-50whp by tuning although I saw next to nothing. Lots of variables to consider so doubt if you will see any high gains. Biggest thing is finding those peaks & troughs in power graph and working those out to make a smoother curve.

Just make sure the Tuner is familiar enough with MS software so he is not learning at your expense. I visited the shop several times before I brought car in to go over my tables. They never charged a bean for the advice so I was very happy to spend a couple hundred to throw car on rollers.

jim

jhkm12345 · Post by **jhkm12345** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:26 am

I'm in Atlanta and I would likely go to balanced performance and let Ed Senf do the tune. Can't find anything but good words about his work. He also tuned on a GTP racecar that I had a hand in building years ago and was a tremendous success. Very efficient with his time and great results.

Matt Cramer · Post by **Matt Cramer** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:49 am

Not only that, Ed Senf's tuned a MS3 Pro on a Jaguar V12 powered speedboat build. Not sure what V12 you're running, but this definitely won't be the first 12 cylinder he's tuned on MegaSquirt.

jhkm12345 · Post by **jhkm12345** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:02 am

It's a 6 liter Jag v12. So yes, that is one of the contributing factors.

jhkm12345 · Post by **jhkm12345** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:30 pm

Well, I cannot say enough about Ed Senf and the guys at Sugar Hill Speed Shop. They are first class. If you're in the southeast and need dyno time or service on something fast, these are your guys.

We went in with a functional working driver and came out with around 10% more power and a lot better appreciation of the capabilities of the MS3 platform and dyno tuning process. Not 100% certain, but I think I might have also picked up another few mpg's in my return trip to Atlanta after the session... will let some more miles pile up then report back.

If you've got a Jag v12, Ed's your guy.

Just a few notes for the next guy down the pike. We had a flawless session, but I can only imagine that not all goes as smoothly...

Be prepared, don't show up with junk and learn to shut up and listen.
If you follow these three rules, you'll get every penny out of the experience and more. Totally worth it.

Anyhow, nothing else to say really, except for that it was a great experience and a public thank you to the guys up there in Sugar Hill. The car ran good before but it's fantastic now. Thanks!

turbo conversion · Post by **turbo conversion** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:42 am

What were the hp and tq results after compared to before?

David

jhkm12345 · Post by **jhkm12345** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:01 am

Not huge numbers. this is a Used, untouched motor from a wrecked car with 75,000 miles.

we got ~250 hp and 275 tq at the wheels with a 4l80e auto transmission.

edit*
Torque comes on full at 2500 rpm and is flat all the way to 6000 only fluctuates about 4lbs

The car runs and drives fantastic

whittlebeast · Post by **whittlebeast** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:33 am

Personally, I would drive it as is. It is tuned to your driving style. Sure, if you smash the throttle from idle when locked in 2ed gear, you may get to some sort of hole in the fueling, but you don't do that.....

Andy

turbo conversion · Post by **turbo conversion** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:00 am

jhkm12345 wrote:Not huge numbers. this is a Used, untouched motor from a wrecked car with 75,000 miles.

we got ~250 hp and 275 tq at the wheels with a 4l80e auto transmission.

edit*
Torque comes on full at 2500 rpm and is flat all the way to 6000 only fluctuates about 4lbs

The car runs and drives fantastic

What were your starting numbers?

David

jhkm12345 · Post by **jhkm12345** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:03 pm

200ish and 255

turbo conversion · Post by **turbo conversion** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:43 pm

jhkm12345 wrote:200ish and 255

That is a substantial gain especially the hp.

David

jhkm12345 · Post by **jhkm12345** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:47 pm

Sorry, half awake today... 225 ish was the starting point. I wasn't really paying attention to the top number, but rather the process of what he was following.

turbo conversion · Post by **turbo conversion** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:42 pm

How long on the dyno?

David

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