Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Tuning concepts, methods, tips etc.

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ironwill11
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Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by ironwill11 »

Hello,

I am beginning to become addicted to MS; however, I think my interest is outweighing my abilities right now.
I understand the concepts of tuning and how fuel injection works but I do not seem to have a knack for the fine tuning ability.

Is there anywhere I can read or watch some videos on some tips and tricks to tuning? There seems to be too many variables and too many cells for me to manage in my mind all at once. It is my understanding that VE analyze only tunes the VE table, and not the spark?

I am working on my idle and it was pretty smooth but it was around 1000 rpm. I worked on getting the IAC closed more (I am down around 20 steps. 40 steps kept me around the 1000 rpm range). I had to keep shutting it down and restarting it to get it to take affect though. I finally got the rpms down to the low 600s. I was aiming for about 650, so I was thinking going to tweat that a little. I also noticed that while it was idling there it was pretty rough. I decided to turn on the VE analyze live feature and see what happened. After a few minutes I noticed that the idle was more steady and the truck was not rocking as much. It seemed to purr a lot better; but the AFR was down in the 12.8 range when the AFR target on the map is supposed to be 13.5.

I was also wondering what a "stable idle" would be? I can get it to be within 15rpm (+/- 8 rpm) without drifting; but it doesn't ever seem to represent a straight line on the the graph in the datalog.

I did notice that the AFR was recording about 0.5 higher in TS then it does on the digital gauge in the truck. It was consistent with this. I am using the LC1/LC2 settings as instructed and am using the innovate MTX-L wideband sensor.

This is my current tune after I used the VE analyze:
2016-12-02_23.25.48_VE-Analyze.msq
I tried to post the datalog; however, it is just over 2MB and the limit here is 1MB.
So I posted it on dropbox if you want to have a look:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8qt9gutthhxk4 ... E.msl?dl=0

Would appreciate any help or any sources to read

Will
Yves
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by Yves »

2 things :
- Only change one thing at at time and see what the effect is and then change the next thing.
- don't expect an engine to be completly smooth as for idle rpm. If it fluctuates within 8 rpm from target I would call it a day. Mine goes +- 50 rpms but that's due to the type of cam.
benckj
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by benckj »

Being not much ahead of you on the tuning front let me answer a couple of questions.

1/ VEAL only tunes the VE table so need to get you Ignition and AFR tables done manually.
2/ Best to tweak EGO wideband cal so it matches gauge.Im using same as you and had to drop lower cal to 6.3 so it matches Innovate gauge. This was confirmed correct on dyno.
3/ Don't worry about set values for AFR or timing at idle. Get it running smooth and target level using the WUE and ignition table. PWM can be tricky to fine tune.
4/ Try and keep all the values under tables same at idle area as this will stop hunting.

Jim
Toyota MR2 98 3sgte
MSPNP2 with 3.57 mainboard
Innovate WB O2 & soon to be external GM 3 bar MAP
FTDI USB interface on SD Android 5.1 head unit
TD05SL2-18g with external WG
HKS EBC running 17psi boost.
A2W IC with WI 50/50 meth/water
ironwill11
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Posts: 199
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by ironwill11 »

benckj wrote:Being not much ahead of you on the tuning front let me answer a did some researchcouple of questions.

1/ VEAL only tunes the VE table so need to get you Ignition and AFR tables done manually.
2/ Best to tweak EGO wideband calharder as so it matches gauge.Im using same as you and had to drop lower cal to 6.3 so it matches Innovate gauge. This was confirmed correct on dyno.
3/ Don't worry about set values for AFR or timing at idle. Get it running smooth and target level using the WUE and ignition table. PWM can be tricky to fine tune.
4/ Try and keep all the values under tables same at idle area as this will stop hunting.

Jim
Awesome thanks.

1) So doing the spark and Afr manually, how do I know what they should be? I research to find out that with tbi systems the idle should be around 13.5 Afr. The rest of the table I got from the table generator. I find the spark table even more difficult as I don't know when to add more advance or take it away. I was looking for theory on this stuff. So far it seems to idle fine and rev
Without breaking up or anything.

2) did you use the manual setting and just enter your own voltages for the ego?

3) I have all my ignition values the sane in the idle area as well as the afr. Then I was laying the veal handle the ve table and it seems pretty smooth. I slowly revved it up to 3000 rpm yesterday as veal was making changes to the ve table. That seemed rather smooth as well.

Will
lutorm
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by lutorm »

I'm not a tuning expert either, but my impression is that you can basically only tune spark on a dyno, because you need a way to find the advance that makes the most power. VE analyze works because it changes the VE until the measured and commanded AFRs agree. That's a fundamentally different operation than adjusting the spark table. Max power isn't super sensitive to AFR, and there's a known AFR that produces max power, so there it seems likely you can get away with guesswork.

Have you checked out https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Fuel ... 1557885575, which features MegaSquirt prominently? They talk about how to tune spark... on a dyno.

If you have a stock-ish engine, the best place to start is probably setting the spark table up with the OEM ignition timing.
ironwill11
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by ironwill11 »

lutorm wrote:I'm not a tuning expert either, but my impression is that you can basically only tune spark on a dyno, because you need a way to find the advance that makes the most power. VE analyze works because it changes the VE until the measured and commanded AFRs agree. That's a fundamentally different operation than adjusting the spark table. Max power isn't super sensitive to AFR, and there's a known AFR that produces max power, so there it seems likely you can get away with guesswork.

Have you checked out https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Fuel ... 1557885575, which features MegaSquirt prominently? They talk about how to tune spark... on a dyno.

If you have a stock-ish engine, the best place to start is probably setting the spark table up with the OEM ignition timing.

Thanks for the reference. I am going to get that book electronically.

I do have a stock engine. The only problem I have found with using an OEM spark table is that the OEM tables are typically atleast 16X16 whereas megasquirt only goes up to 12X12 for the spark table. That leaves some room for interpretation.

It seems to run fine with the spark table created with the table generator. I have even driven it up and down the street to try and took some of the other sections of the VE table. I figured if I can get more of that tuned then I can start doing the AE and the WUE.

Will
ironwill11
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by ironwill11 »

benckj wrote:Being not much ahead of you on the tuning front let me answer a couple of questions.

1/ VEAL only tunes the VE table so need to get you Ignition and AFR tables done manually.
2/ Best to tweak EGO wideband cal so it matches gauge.Im using same as you and had to drop lower cal to 6.3 so it matches Innovate gauge. This was confirmed correct on dyno.
3/ Don't worry about set values for AFR or timing at idle. Get it running smooth and target level using the WUE and ignition table. PWM can be tricky to fine tune.
4/ Try and keep all the values under tables same at idle area as this will stop hunting.

Jim
So you are using the LC1/LC2 default setting for the wideband? For some reason the voltages are greyed out when I used that setting. I was thinking about using the manual settings and just entering my voltages.

Will
benckj
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by benckj »

Sorry for not replying earlier.

I did not use the Innovate cal values as they cannot be altered. Instead I've used the generic wideband selection and entered 6.3 into zero and 22.39 into the 5v set-point. I found that these values made the TS accurately match my gauge over full range but you may want to alter settings so yours agrees.

Once TS is seeing correct O2 value and is not noisy you can set the AFR table by using tools within the table drop down. Enter you goals (max power, torque, size and rpm) and let calculator fill in table as this saves quite a bit of guess work. Just make sure you run with EGO control activated so VEAL can do its thing.

jim
Toyota MR2 98 3sgte
MSPNP2 with 3.57 mainboard
Innovate WB O2 & soon to be external GM 3 bar MAP
FTDI USB interface on SD Android 5.1 head unit
TD05SL2-18g with external WG
HKS EBC running 17psi boost.
A2W IC with WI 50/50 meth/water
ironwill11
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Posts: 199
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by ironwill11 »

benckj wrote:Sorry for not replying earlier.

I did not use the Innovate cal values as they cannot be altered. Instead I've used the generic wideband selection and entered 6.3 into zero and 22.39 into the 5v set-point. I found that these values made the TS accurately match my gauge over full range but you may want to alter settings so yours agrees.

Once TS is seeing correct O2 value and is not noisy you can set the AFR table by using tools within the table drop down. Enter you goals (max power, torque, size and rpm) and let calculator fill in table as this saves quite a bit of guess work. Just make sure you run with EGO control activated so VEAL can do its thing.

jim
Awesome thanks!

I will tinker with this now. I got away from it a little as I noticed I was having torque (spring wrap) issues.

Will
joelittel
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by joelittel »

benckj wrote:Sorry for not replying earlier.

I did not use the Innovate cal values as they cannot be altered. Instead I've used the generic wideband selection and entered 6.3 into zero and 22.39 into the 5v set-point. I found that these values made the TS accurately match my gauge over full range but you may want to alter settings so yours agrees.

Once TS is seeing correct O2 value and is not noisy you can set the AFR table by using tools within the table drop down. Enter you goals (max power, torque, size and rpm) and let calculator fill in table as this saves quite a bit of guess work. Just make sure you run with EGO control activated so VEAL can do its thing.

jim

Jim, how did you decide upon 6.3 and 22.39 as being the correct values for your car? I'd like to get mine setup perfectly as well but don't know how to determine the correct values.
benckj
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by benckj »

To get correct TS cal values I simply tinkered with it until I matched the O2 sensor the Tuner used in my exhaust. He I only moved the lower value which brought the others in line with gauge. Tuner also stated that engine will start to miss at 15.3AFR when idling so that was another point to use. Granted the spark advance will change some of these values but it got my TS and gauge reading the same.

jim
Toyota MR2 98 3sgte
MSPNP2 with 3.57 mainboard
Innovate WB O2 & soon to be external GM 3 bar MAP
FTDI USB interface on SD Android 5.1 head unit
TD05SL2-18g with external WG
HKS EBC running 17psi boost.
A2W IC with WI 50/50 meth/water
joelittel
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by joelittel »

So your tuner only adjusted the 5v value.

I'll try that.

I put in 6.3 & 22.something yesterday but my gauge and tuner studio are still not matching.

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joelittel
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by joelittel »

Sorry, I think I misunderstood. Your tuner only adjusted the 0v value (6.3) until the gauge and ts matched.

Correct?

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benckj
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by benckj »

Correct as this brought in all my values to within reason. He has found that is required when using the Innovate controllers from other cars so was not a surprise.

jim
Toyota MR2 98 3sgte
MSPNP2 with 3.57 mainboard
Innovate WB O2 & soon to be external GM 3 bar MAP
FTDI USB interface on SD Android 5.1 head unit
TD05SL2-18g with external WG
HKS EBC running 17psi boost.
A2W IC with WI 50/50 meth/water
ironwill11
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by ironwill11 »

joelittel wrote:Sorry, I think I misunderstood. Your tuner only adjusted the 0v value (6.3) until the gauge and ts matched.

Correct?

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

Yes that is what I did as well. I put the gauges right next to each other so I can look at them both at the same time.

Will
joelittel
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by joelittel »

Guess I know what I'll be doing tonight then...

Thanks for the help.

Is this an adjustment I can make with the engine running or will I have to kill the engine, adjust values, fire it up and check... then repeat if necessary?

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suberimakuri
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by suberimakuri »

You can adjust calibration with the engine running and it is worth doing.
You need to unlock calibrations, adjust, save.
Then when finished and matching AFR's you can lock the calibrations again.

Expect some changes as VEAL will start adjusting your VE table.

Typically you have to end up 'hand tuning' a little after VEAL. I end up setting it active a few hundred rpm above idle once idle is good.
ironwill11
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by ironwill11 »

joelittel wrote:Guess I know what I'll be doing tonight then...

Thanks for the help.

Is this an adjustment I can make with the engine running or will I have to kill the engine, adjust values, fire it up and check... then repeat if necessary?

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

I did mine with the engine running. And if it is moving around a lot you are going to have to have the gauges side by side; otherwise by the time you move your head to see the other gauge it has changed a little. If you are an exacting person this will drive you crazy.

Will
joelittel
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by joelittel »

I'm not sure I understand how to lock and unlock my calibration. I'm using MS 2, have manually adjusted the values and now have matching gauges... but I haven't found a lock function yet.
slow_hemi6
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Re: Tuning, VE analyze live, and AFR settings

Post by slow_hemi6 »

Under tools in tuner studio "Un/Lock Calibrations" should be 4th from the bottom.
Find the Manuals up top under Quick links: Manuals. :RTFM:
Cheers Luke
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