starting problems

[Maki]

Hi everyone, I'm running MS2 on ford engine with edis. The car was fine, she was starting, sometimes dying after start but after starting again she worked fine. But now she doesn't start at all. Maybe this is change in weather conditions as now it is winter and temperatures are around 0 C, but anyway I can't figure out and need your help. I checked fuel supply is ok, removed plugs, those where wet. After drying them the spark was visible. So no further Ideas. Tried to lower and raising the req fuel, but no changes.Was cranking till the battery went dead. then charged and some more attempts, but with no luck, she grabs only for a second or so.
Attached you will find the the log and current tune.

[DOISP]

hello, did you try testing coils and injectors from test output?

if was working and you have working both coils and injectors should start... the unique tricky thing can be the start fuel, but you can try giving a couple of start/off with the key so this will provide initial fuel.

Anyhow I'm thinking your coil is not working because your sparks are wet.

[DaveEFI]

Not sure you can do a coil test with EDIS?

The log looks very spiky to me. I'd be looking at grounding first.

The VE table appears to have only had any tuning done at certain speed/load. If those are correct, other cells look like they won't be.

I'd generate a VE table based on the engine's output. And compare it to the one in use. It won't be spot on, but should show the general shape of how it should look.

[kjones6039]

That is certainly one of the strangest VE tables I have ever run across here. I think Dave's advice above, is absolutely in order.

If you are running EDIS you need to change Dwell Type to Fixed Duty rather than Standard Dwell as it is now.

Is this a boosted or n/a installation?

Ken

[Maki]

It is boosted engine. Isn't that clear when you look at the ignition table? I used to run ve analyzer on my other project but it didn't work for me this time. should I register log view or tuner studio in order for it to work?
I tuned it by looking at the logs to be 11.5:1 that I needed in the range the car was driven and that's it. I had much of a struggle with idle so that's why maybe the table look like that when I was raising and lowering some values in order to achieve that. But anyway that is not the problem at the moment. It doesn't start.

Ok, so I will check the grounding, but what more precisely to check? all the grounds are bolted to the car body and those are only one year old.
If I set to fixed duty instead of standard dwell so many setting become active that I don't know anything about, like ignition output capture??? on MSnS it was so simple never had to set anything only chose EDIS and it worked.

I would say it's flooding the engine at the start and I get wet plugs that don't want to spark after...

[Maki]

Replaced the coil today, made no difference. took the plugs out again. all wet, placed them on engine and cranked... no spark, took other old plugs, the spark was ok, but those do not fit the engine so I couldn't try and start it. Will order new plugs today, but the question is could those go bad because of too rich mixture? as it was very rich consumption was very high, but I wanted to be save as it is boosted. how to determine whether I should lower or raise the values for startup? there is no use of wideband here

[jsmcortina]

You may be able to save the fouled plugs by heating the electrode with a propane torch.

James

[turbo conversion]

First of all the reason Ken asked if it is n/a or boosted is your afr table is set up for n/a and ve and ignition tables are set up for boost.

Your current ve afr and ignition table are pretty much unusable as the are.

First of all your first 10 to 12 kpa bens need to go to 100 then the last 6 to 4 (I prefer 4 ) will be used for boost as boost is pretty much linear.

You want much more resolution (kpa bens) for drive ability.

If you have TS Registered then set up the kpa bens first then enter all boxes and let TS generate your ve and afr tables, this should be a good starting point.

You will have to do the timing table manually.

Also as James said you need to clean the plugs with a torch, drying them will not do anything once gas fouled.

Gas fouled plugs are carbon fouled and unless you clean the carbon with heat the may fire out of the engine but under pressure they will not.

I have even seen plugs cleaned with a torch fire out of the engine but once installed they do not once under pressure.

Electricity like water seeks the path of lest resistance hence it follows the carbon trail to ground so no spark.

Hope this helps.

David

[kjones6039]

It is boosted engine. Isn't that clear when you look at the ignition table?

It's pretty hard to be sure of anything, with so much difference in the various tables.

Ken

[Maki]

I was drying the plugs with heat, but still did see that the spark was hitting not at the end but somewhere deeper in the spark plug, so got myself new once today, only that would like to set the engine for good start first then go for tuning all the rest.
My TS is not registered. That's why I asked what to register as there are so many options and I'm not that rich to buy all of them. Please tell me what is necessary to purchase. I used to use Megatune first and log viewer, there I ran VE analyzer to optimize the table. But now I think TS has it inside, no need for log viewer? Or am I wrong

[Maki]

First of all the reason Ken asked if it is n/a or boosted is your afr table is set up for n/a and ve and ignition tables are set up for boost.

Your current ve afr and ignition table are pretty much unusable as the are.

First of all your first 10 to 12 kpa bens need to go to 100 then the last 6 to 4 (I prefer 4 ) will be used for boost as boost is pretty much linear.

You want much more resolution (kpa bens) for drive ability.

...

David

Thanks Dave, I've opened up the VE table now and see why it is misleading My first map was done on msI and the table there is 12*12.... on MS2 we have bigger resolution 16*16.... I was transferring the values manually... and most probably forgot to expand those to cover the whole 16*16 table as now the 12 row has 280 kpa and then the 16 has 100 as default was there like that AFR table I wasn't using at all. so will have to replace the values to correspond all three tables VE, Ignition and AFR

The good thing is that the engine started with the new plugs now.
Thanks to you all, but please help me to choose what software I should register in order to autotune the VE table.

M.

[DaveEFI]

Usual way to ground MS is to the engine block. That has to have a good ground to the battery for the high current the starter motor needs.

To use VEAl, you need to register TS. But you need to sort out the kpa side first for a turbo engine. Your VE table only goes to 100 kpa.

[Maki]

No my ve table goes to 280 til 12th row but then drops again to 100 as I forgot to change those while transferring values from 12*12 table take a look at the picture of the table
Will fix it, thanks for pointing it out

[billr]

I suggest the TunerStudio MS and MegaLog Viewer MS, a "steal" at about $100 total. Thanks, Phil!

[Maki]

Hi guys, I've registered my TS and log viewer, but now I faced a different problem. Installed new LC 2, did the calibration, but when I run the car I get max up to 10,9 AFR readings? did I miss some settings? or should I have to use different wire for analog output, I've used brown one and left the yellow one hanging

[CRSTune]

Do you have a gauge to reference? If not, I'd check what the voltage is going into the MS and what the corresponding reading in TS is. That'll help tell you if there is a discrepancy.

Also, how do you have the LC2 inputting the signal? Does it have it's own dedicated wire to the MS plug or did you tap into the factory O2 input? If it's the latter, do you have a factory O2 sensor still installed? If so, you'll need to disconnect the factory sensor. The factory sensor will interfere with the wideband's signal.

[Maki]

no gauge, I used to run borrowed LC 1, so now just plugged the LC 2 the same way to the o2 terminal on the relay board

[CRSTune]

When you say you did the calibration, are you referring to the calibration in TS or the LC2 sensor calibration?

[Maki]

now reading these instructions:

With your TunerStudio project open, go to:
File > Project > Project Properties and click on the Settings tab
Under EGO O2 Sensor, chose the right option (Innovate LC-1 Default) for your wideband in the drop down menu and click Ok. TunerStudio will quickly restart and take you back to the main dashboard.

Next, click on the Basic Settings tab and chose EGO Controls. You will need to change your EGO Sensor Type to wideband or dual wideband as appropriate for your setup. Don’t forget to burn the change to your MegaSquirt. Lastly you will need to go to the Tools menu up top and click on Calibrate AFR Table. Chose your sensor type (Innovate LC-1 Default) in the drop down menu, and click on Write to Controller. This is a one way flash, so don’t be alarmed if your settings don’t ‘stick’ in this menu after you’ve sent them to the controller. After the write is complete, click Close.

Your AFR Targets Table will be under Basic setup > AFR Table 1

I can't find ego controls under basic settings I also can't find calibrate afr table under tools menu are those instruction to old ?

but this one was useful:
For the LC-1, wire the brown (analog out 2) wire to the MegaSquirt’s O2 input wire. For the MTX-L and LC-2, the default analog outputs are reversed, so you’d wire the yellow (analog out 1) wire to the MegaSquirt’s O2 input wire.

so will have to swap wires.

[CRSTune]

Those sound like old instructions. The wideband calibration is located under Tools->Calibrate AFR Table.