Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

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rukavina
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by rukavina »

You can go get or make a tdc tool. It goes in the plug hole and you crank the motor by hand and when it indicates that the piston is at the top you make a mark. Put tool in next cylinder , rotate til tdc and make a mark. Repeat all cylinders. Now measure on #1 tdc to your preferred advance Mark ~15° , rotate to all your other marks you just made and mark with a different color Mark. Now you know where tdc is and also where spark is for each cylinder
4wheel drive 454 vortec on ms2 w/gpio for 4l80e Trans control
Mr Bombjoy
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by Mr Bombjoy »

grom_e30 wrote:there the odd fire angles. it knows that cylinder one fires then 90 later the next cylinder, then 150 later the next cylinder and so on......
Without cam sync how does Megasquirt time ignition with only a 36-1 wheel? I am working on a similar project and I've been loosely digging for that operational theory, although I am adding cam sync to my own car.
Does it fire the coil 12x per 720 degrees like a single coil wastespark? e.g. for a 90/150 split, crank angles of "90 120 210 240 330 360" ?
billr wrote:I now understand that this PRV V6 has 90* banks, but do we know for sure that crank-pins aren't split?
Definitely not split pins. Those came in later era PRV engines.
jsmcortina
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by jsmcortina »

Mr Bombjoy wrote:
grom_e30 wrote:there the odd fire angles. it knows that cylinder one fires then 90 later the next cylinder, then 150 later the next cylinder and so on......
Without cam sync how does Megasquirt time ignition with only a 36-1 wheel? I
I think you've hit on a problem there.... it can't can it.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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grom_e30
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by grom_e30 »

jsmcortina wrote:
Mr Bombjoy wrote:
grom_e30 wrote:there the odd fire angles. it knows that cylinder one fires then 90 later the next cylinder, then 150 later the next cylinder and so on......
Without cam sync how does Megasquirt time ignition with only a 36-1 wheel? I
I think you've hit on a problem there.... it can't can it.

James
should it not have thrown a config error if it needs a cam signal?
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
jsmcortina
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by jsmcortina »

grom_e30 wrote:should it not have thrown a config error if it needs a cam signal?
It can't detect every potential misconfiguration.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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billr
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by billr »

Do I understand correctly, the GM odd-fire V6 also requires a cam sensor? Is it likely that all odd-fire configs will require the CMP?
grom_e30
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by grom_e30 »

i'm assuming it needs the cam to sync the engine phase or you have a 50/50 of it running correctly
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
TwinTurboDeLorean
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by TwinTurboDeLorean »

OK, the latest update:
-I went ahead and did a compression test and all cylinders and they are good, within 12% (2 at 140, 2 at 150, and 2 at 160 PSI).
-I double-checked all spark plugs at .025" gap
-Here is a GoPro video I did at the driver side tail pipe: https://youtu.be/uVSoa28UwWk
-In the video you can hear the longer start, which is not my primary concern at this point. The big concern is the miss at idle, cruise, and decel. It doesn't appear to miss under acceleration. If the MSQ doesn't show any glaring issues, then it has to be the timing which I will have to check for each cylinder...
-I understand the need to mark on the pulley at TDC for every cylinder and then attach the inductive pickup to each cylinder to see if it shows any difference. I am working on that this weekend.
-"MAP AE is way too sensitive, try turning AE off (highest thresholds possible) until you are past the basic issues of getting it to run OK steady-state." Ok, Ill try this.
Any other thoughts?
I really appreciate all of the help guys. Really.
Josh
1981 DeLorean, 5-Speed, 2.85 PRV Odd-Fire, High Lift Cams, Ported/Polished Heads, Stock bottom end, 8.8:1 Comp, Twin Garrett GT1548s, MS2Extra 3.57, Innovate LC-2 WB, Jeep IAC, 36-1 T-Wheel, Stock Dizzy(Mech Adv Locked), 45 PSI fuel, Accel 24 lb Inj, Vibrant evac can recirculating system, TPS
ImageImage[/url]
Mr Bombjoy
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by Mr Bombjoy »

jsmcortina wrote:I think you've hit on a problem there.... it can't can it.
And yet somehow it does! :D

After thinking about it, It can't be 6 sparks / rotation or the tach would read 2x.

That leaves:
-Coin flip
-Detect crank acceleration on correctly timed event
-Some other form of magic?
jsmcortina
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by jsmcortina »

There is no crank deceleration detection.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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TwinTurboDeLorean
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by TwinTurboDeLorean »

got it running much better, it was running lean under decel. richened up and solved it.
Now I have an issue with the idle increasing as engine warms up. it starts out fine but increase to 1500 when warm. see attached msq.
Anything sticking out? it fires up with no touch of the throttle. i like the idle at cold start. need to get it down when warmed up.
data log to follow shortly.
Thanks again for all of the help.
1981 DeLorean, 5-Speed, 2.85 PRV Odd-Fire, High Lift Cams, Ported/Polished Heads, Stock bottom end, 8.8:1 Comp, Twin Garrett GT1548s, MS2Extra 3.57, Innovate LC-2 WB, Jeep IAC, 36-1 T-Wheel, Stock Dizzy(Mech Adv Locked), 45 PSI fuel, Accel 24 lb Inj, Vibrant evac can recirculating system, TPS
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TwinTurboDeLorean
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by TwinTurboDeLorean »

data log attached
1981 DeLorean, 5-Speed, 2.85 PRV Odd-Fire, High Lift Cams, Ported/Polished Heads, Stock bottom end, 8.8:1 Comp, Twin Garrett GT1548s, MS2Extra 3.57, Innovate LC-2 WB, Jeep IAC, 36-1 T-Wheel, Stock Dizzy(Mech Adv Locked), 45 PSI fuel, Accel 24 lb Inj, Vibrant evac can recirculating system, TPS
ImageImage[/url]
TwinTurboDeLorean
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by TwinTurboDeLorean »

see attached logged from immediately after restart and very high idle , over 1500 rpms. why does it do this?
1981 DeLorean, 5-Speed, 2.85 PRV Odd-Fire, High Lift Cams, Ported/Polished Heads, Stock bottom end, 8.8:1 Comp, Twin Garrett GT1548s, MS2Extra 3.57, Innovate LC-2 WB, Jeep IAC, 36-1 T-Wheel, Stock Dizzy(Mech Adv Locked), 45 PSI fuel, Accel 24 lb Inj, Vibrant evac can recirculating system, TPS
ImageImage[/url]
Matt Cramer
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by Matt Cramer »

Try using the initial value table for the closed loop idle and set it to a lower number of steps.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
Wolfman11
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by Wolfman11 »

Hi, I like the look of your build, even from the small picture. Nice!
I have followed this thread from the beginning and have not really understood it´s problems and especially not how they got solved. It sems some issues just disappered.
It is fine when errors disappear, but usually this does not happen without intervention by the operator. So maybe some points I noticed can make further tuning easier for you.

1. You moved the earth point from the intake to the engine block, this solved a major problem. Why? Grounding this and any other ECU is most important! Also, a wide band lambda like the Innovate can be way of without proper grounding.

2. While working on the car, what kind of charger do you use? Some chargers can put out noise that disturbs sensors, even more with weak grounding and a low battery. If you want to power the ECU directly, the 12 volt source has to be stabilized.

3. You should figure out theoretically what engine you have and how it fires, which sequence and on what degrees. No need to measure this!

4. Proper grounding is not something to do some time, when the engine runs, but all further programming depends on it and consistent sensor readings. You get all kinds of strange, non repeatable faults from mistakes you have there.

I hope this might help a little, good luck,

Chris
Wolfman11
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by Wolfman11 »

Hi, as far as I could find out ist the Peugeot/ Citroen engine a 90° even fire. It is no GM product! This explains why your engine is running. It is timed like a straigt 6. So, mystery solved.
Mr Bombjoy
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by Mr Bombjoy »

Wolfman11 wrote:Hi, as far as I could find out ist the Peugeot/ Citroen engine a 90° even fire. It is no GM product! This explains why your engine is running. It is timed like a straigt 6. So, mystery solved.
It is absolutely an odd-fire engine (B28F). Only later versions of this motor were even (B280F and beyond)

Here is a pic of the distributor cap:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAyMlgxMDIy/ ... Dp/$_1.JPG

I'm still curious as to how it handles ignition without a cam sensor! Especially since I have the same motor and have gone to some effort to refit my own distributor to output a phasing signal.
Matt Cramer
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by Matt Cramer »

The stock setup used a distributor rotor with the odd fire spacing built in.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
Mr Bombjoy
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by Mr Bombjoy »

Matt Cramer wrote:The stock setup used a distributor rotor with the odd fire spacing built in.
Is this in reference to my "how does it work" question? The OP is using a 36-1 wheel for sync with no cam phase source, not a distributor based sync due to persistent issues with the distributor VR pickup.

msq shows single toothed wheel. I'm just curious how that works correctly. Is it like a 50/50 start/no-start situation and hope you don't lose sync while driving?
Wolfman11
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Re: Twin Turbo Delorean Not Starting

Post by Wolfman11 »

OK, the distributor said it all. Sorry for me wrong. I read about the history of this engine and the article pointet at it´s strange even fire sequence. Read again, very early ones were odd.
Sorry again.

Chris
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