We need a bring up an EFI from Scratch thread

[whittlebeast]

Who wants to have their motor as the demo motor. To get the thread started, a fairly tame motor would be best. A stock SBC, Honda or similar may be best. I would volunteer mine as an example, but it is a little off the beaten path.

I see lots of "Where do I start?" threads.

Andy

[ironwill11]

I think this is a good idea.

I have a 4.3 chevy TBI, no mods with MSII v3.0, perhaps too out-datted?

Will

[Six_Shooter]

What exactly is it you want of a thread like this?

Go through from installing the MS system to tuning? that's great and all, but every engine has it's own needs and would take hundreds of threads to do this idea justice, because of all the different options and the fact that people would have no clue how to take what are in the basic threads and apply it to their own engines (for the most part).

There already IS a step by step guide, several actually, the manuals that you can find links to at the top of the forum and many guides on various vehicle specific forums all over the interweb. DIYautotune has a series of article on going from carb to EFI and different options for the EFI on a SBC.

What is it that you want that the existing manuals, articles and forum posts don't already have?

[whittlebeast]

This thread is a great food for thought.

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 7&p=503477

Regarding this thread, I want to concentrate on verifying base timing and then moving on to basic fuel tuning. I see lots of threads that people are trying to tune around noisy sensors, running way too lean trying to get great fuel mileage way before it is time to go there. I tend to tune base on what I see in the logs. I bet plenty of people would find it interesting to read along and do the same tricks on their car.

I will try to avoid getting involved in ignition settings as motors are really different from one to the next.

[whittlebeast]

Ironwill

Yours would work. We may run into fuel distribution issues if this is one of the old style two big injectors in a throttle body that looks like a big carburetor. They only lasted a few years and the OEMs went to port injected.

Are you running at this point?

Andy

[Rick Finsta]

Andy, if you want to do a hot street motor (~500hp N/A V8) at some point, let me know. I've got no problem starting a tune from scratch to demonstrate the process, and I also think I could learn a lot from the feedback. Car has good idle characteristics that would translate well to a lot of applications. I also am willing to add a few sensors if it would help.

[whittlebeast]

Post up a big data log and MSQ on a site like WeTransfer The faster the data rate, the better.

Here is the list of fields I log at 200 hz

Time
SecL
RPM
MAP
TPS
VSS
MAF volts (If Used)
MAF Freq (If Used)
AFR
MAT
CLT
Engine
Batt V
EGO cor1
Fuel: Accel enrich
Fuel: Accel PW
VE1
PW
Duty Cycle1
VE1 raw
VE2 raw
SPK: Spark Advance
AFR 1 Target
AFR 1 Error
RPMdot
Lost sync count
Accel X
Accel Y
Accel Z
PWM E duty (This is controlling my VVT solenoid)
Status1 (Note, Status codes have all sorts of things logged in them)
Status2
Status3
Status4
Engine in cruise state
Engine accelerating slowly
Engine accelerating quickly
Engine decelerating slowly
Engine decelerating quickly
Engine in overrun
Engine idling
Engine WOT
Fuel Consumption
GPS_MPH
Injector_Head_Room (I calculate this one in the ECU)
Tooth number
next_spark.tooth

[Rick Finsta]

How about this... if you were to emulate someone getting ready to fire the car for the first time, what order of operations would you want to see? I can do a video and stick it on Youtube, but the video editing and such is a bit beyond my comfort zone (so overlays of settings in Tunerstudio, etc.).

I do have a Dropbox account if you wanted to collaborate that way?

My first start up goes something like this; if you run into trouble at any point, you stop and fix the issue before continuing on:

*For any DIY setup, make sure you have run the ECU on a stim prior to installation in the car!*

Verify COM settings and connect to ECU
Pull injector and ignition fuses, and run fuel pump to check for leaks and set pressure.
Pull spark plugs and spin the motor and capture a trigger/composite log.
Reinstall spark plugs, replace ignition fuse, and test ignition output using test mode. If distributor, phase rotor, of COP, check every coil individually
Now set fixed timing and crank engine to verify timing. Adjust phasing as necessary (software or hardware).
Pull O2 sensor from exhaust, and power controller. Run MAPP, Propane, Butane, etc. and verify that you are seeing response (should go rich).
Replace injector fuse and fire the motor.
Verify oil pressure and fuel pressure.
At this point, if cam break-in is required, then adjust fuel and timing and try to keep the motor from overheating. at some point you do need to check timing while revving for latency.
Verify charging system is working properly.

At that point I think 90% of all installation problems will have been identified but I feel like I'm missing something in that list.

I would not tackle warm up enrichment or cranking pulsewidth yet - not until after I've got good idle established. I tune idle on the first startup once everything is warmed up. I think this is also when you should get a handle on your injector characteristics. I don't even think of turning on EGO correction yet, or a myriad of other things many guys are asking about before they have a stable idle and well-tuned VE table!

How is this looking so far? I'll get my new alternator installed this afternoon and maybe I can get a base tune set up and get a log.

[whittlebeast]

We need to add...

Always start every project with a default map, unless you got the unit as a plug and play from a retailer.

Always start the project on Speed Density fueling, no matter what you read on the internet about your type motor is somehow different. Two strokes are just about the only exception to this rule.

Verify that your injectors are about the correct size for your application. Here is a reasonable place to start. https://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

Andy

[jsimmons]

Andy if you like we can use my car for this.. Since we live fairly close to each other we could get together and get actual hands on with logs and everything. I just switched to methanol and have only idle time on it thus far since the switch. Only problem is this car is a track car but I could possibly do some minor street driving around the house, ive done it before lol. Or if we could get access to a dyno that would be even better. you have my number feel free to call.. incase you forgot, this is a coyote swapped foxbody, has working vvt, auto trans with a brake.. lots of topics could be covered using this as a mule.- jeb

[whittlebeast]

Here is an injector sizing chart in the manual that can get people in the ballpark. This chart assumes about 6000 RPM and gasoline.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS3 ... .4-69.html

[ironwill11]

Ironwill

Yours would work. We may run into fuel distribution issues if this is one of the old style two big injectors in a throttle body that looks like a big carburetor. They only lasted a few years and the OEMs went to port injected.

Are you running at this point?

Andy

Sounds like mine is exactly what your not looking for. I have a stock 4.3 tbi with 2 injectors in the carb style throttle body, 1995.

Will

[DHH]

Hope you guys go through with this.
Couldn't come at a better time for me.
Going to be firing up my first MS motor within the next month.

[whittlebeast]

At this point, I am assuming you have verified the ignition settings and timing.....

The first rule of bringing a motor up is always data log. If you have a MS3X setup on any one of the Pro units, I set the logging to "Always", at least to start.

Start out with the default msq to build your first tune on SPEED DENSITY. Start out by setting the ReqFuel to your best guess for the injector size, This normally comes from a internet search. If the motor is normally aspirated, I normally try to reset the break points to numbers on the Speed Density table to range from about 20 up to 100 KPA.

Personally, I like to set the AFR targets to 13.5 from about 20 KPA to about 80 KPA and then fade the AFR Targets to 13 at 100 KPA. Later, we will lean the motor up some for fuel economy.

It is time to twist the key and see if it starts. If it starts, it normally about 15 sec to get the wideband to come on line. Once it comes on line, I tend to play with the ReqFuel to get the the motor up to temp and get off the warm up part of the sequence. The goal at this point is to get the motor up to temp and have a reasonable idle at near 13.5 AFR simply playing with the ReqFuel.

Andy

[Rick Finsta]

Andy I got the new alternator installed and tested today and I think everything looks good to go to start tuning from scratch. I also need to tune dead time on this build so that might be a good place to start?