Hot/Warm start issues

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beast02
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by beast02 »

Hold on, i've got a theory (won't be able to test until Sunday at the earliest though). I can't look at my logs right now, but based on memory, I think the Cranking Pulse widths die off just as the engine is starting/trying to catch/fire up.....essentially killing it.

So, maybe I need to increase my cycles for the higher temp start-ups on the cranking pulse widths. What do you think?

yes, i'll look into/still check out the lost sync issue, but because it happens when the car fires up cold i'm doubting it as the root cause.

-Bryan
2005 Ford Duratec 2.0L (Stock, using stock CAM and VR sensors and locations)
MS3X 3.57
Ford COP sequential ignition (Jbperf 4 channel driver board)
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by turbo conversion »

I don't think the lost sync is causing your no start issue but it needs to be addressed.

Cranking pulse is active as stated (active during cranking only) after start takes over once rpm reaches 300 (cranking rpm).

I think the cranking pulse is okay as the engine does try to fire as long as it is in cranking mode, it dies once it activates after start enrichment.

I would try to increase after start enrichment in that area (hot start temperature) by 5 to 7 and see if it helps.

The reason I say this is earlier in your post you looked at the plugs and said they were dry after an attempted hot start.

If there was to much fuel the plugs would have been wet so my WAG (wild ass guess) would be it needs more after start enrichment.

David

EDIT: word
1976 Datsun 280Z L28ET Garrett GT35R T3-T04E stage3 50 trim 63 A/R housing custom grind cam 2000-6000 rpm 440cc injectors intercooled 18 lbs. boost
3" exhaust turbo back LC-1 o2 sensor Hallman manual boost controller EDIS 6 ignition batch fire 60mm throttle body 5 spd T5 borg warner 3.54 lsd
beast02
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by beast02 »

I finally had a decent amount of time to work on this Thursday (I think) and just an hour ago. I think I am homing in on the issue but still have some questions.

It turns out my Cranking and afterstart PW were WAY too high.....I ended up reducing by magnitudes. Was in the 20's I think......now down around 3-5 for afterstart, cranking is also significantly reduced. So, when I first checked the plugs like 2 weeks ago when I first posted this issue........I forgot to mention the car had sat for about 20 minutes while my dad ran off to get the spanners. So, probably ample time for any 'wetness' to evaporate.

Last Thursday when I was working this, I pulled a plug and it still didn't look WET to me, but durring cranking I felt I could SMELL gas......which I figured was a sign I was dumping too much in. So, this is when I started trying lowering the numbers and noticed bumps in the RPM as it tried to catch. I think I have it reasonably working now up to about 180F (when I stopped to write this and check the logs). There also could have been some residual drop in V from cranking and also a more difficult time firing......but, this is just thoughts.

Anyway, i'll post some logs, one thing that I'm wondering is why, if my cranking PW are quite different from lets say 100F to 180F, do the PW in my log show it is relatively the same? Roughly 20-21 is what I am seeing at cranking. Just want to see if I am reading the graph/charts wrong as I input my settings.

Thanks,

Bryan
2005 Ford Duratec 2.0L (Stock, using stock CAM and VR sensors and locations)
MS3X 3.57
Ford COP sequential ignition (Jbperf 4 channel driver board)
GSXR750 ITB's
turbo conversion
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by turbo conversion »

What is the difference between the first and second log.

First log looks much better, the second log not so much.

David
1976 Datsun 280Z L28ET Garrett GT35R T3-T04E stage3 50 trim 63 A/R housing custom grind cam 2000-6000 rpm 440cc injectors intercooled 18 lbs. boost
3" exhaust turbo back LC-1 o2 sensor Hallman manual boost controller EDIS 6 ignition batch fire 60mm throttle body 5 spd T5 borg warner 3.54 lsd
beast02
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by beast02 »

The difference is just the coolant temperature at which I am cranking and starting up. Mostly trying to look at the PW of the 2 logs and see what the effect is at those coolant temps.

The msq is the same for these except maybe cranking/ASE which has been adjusted as I went up in temp. The file posted is what it is at now.
2005 Ford Duratec 2.0L (Stock, using stock CAM and VR sensors and locations)
MS3X 3.57
Ford COP sequential ignition (Jbperf 4 channel driver board)
GSXR750 ITB's
trtinker6
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by trtinker6 »

I think I am making this harder than necessary, but "ignore MAT during ASE on/off".
To ignore MAT, set to on, and to include, set to off?
Thanks,
Dennis
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by Dennis930 »

Yes, set "on" to ignore MAT.
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trtinker6
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by trtinker6 »

Dennis930:
Thanks for the verification. I would think that Yes/No would be better choices, but perhaps I'm the only one.
Dennis
madmister2
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by madmister2 »

Hey,

just letting you know that I've been following this thread as I had the exact same issues and tried all the same things with no success just like you. I finally managed to fix it. My rpm signal was going to zero a lot while cranking hot for some reason. I see that you also have the issue but less severe than me so it might not be your problem but in my case it was. I played around with the rpm noise filtering (noise filter curve, time and percentage) while cranking with the foot on the floor to prevent injection and I managed to find a setup that got rid of the zeros and it now starts just fine even when hot.

Might not be your main issue but it sure wouldn't hurt to get a stable rpm reading...
tbaggins
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by tbaggins »

To springboard off the above comment, have you tried starting it in wasted spark mode when hot?

There are problems with the mustang chain tensioners not getting up to pressure and the cam sensor timing going off +/- 10 degrees when starting, causing sync loss and not being able to start in full sequential. If they use the same tensioner setup for your vehicle, it might be a reason for the sync issues at startup, and possibly hot startup issues. Oil pressure goes down as the vehicle heats up, it is something you might consider trying, being you have tried everything else. If it starts in wasted spark, I can give you more info on what they did to fix it.

Forgive my ignorance if this seems like a shot in the dark or non-applicable. Still learning.
2003 Mustang 2V stock harness splice, MS3X v3.0 parallel install, full sequential, HPX MAF, Ford Ev6 47lb injectors, COP, custom 8 BIP373 box, E85 pump, teflon lined return style fuel system, 39 lb base fuel pressure, Twin Turbo @ 7lbs boost, Dual 4 port boost solenoids, Dual 14point7 widebands
beast02
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by beast02 »

Well, I'm about 99% sure I solved this. It was a fueling issue, though none of the suggested ones. It turns out the after start enrichment was too high....which when I had it down around 5,6,7 for the warm/hot temps, I figured was pretty dang low. But, apparently engines (or mine) are way more sensitive at warm/hot temperatures than I thought.

I had my 180 degree ASE value at 2 and it did not start.....it would catch and die still, but not start. So, I turned it down to 1, and wham, it fired up. So, I guess this just goes to show you, those cranking and ASE pulse widths are really sensitive! I'll post some comparison data logs later to show, but I think I went from a cranking PW of the low 20's to about 14 when it finally worked as well.

Something I still haven't fully understood yet and messed around with not knowing the affect is the cranking taper curve.

Also, after going through this, a nice visual flow diagram of the start up process and enrichment's would be really helpful for fixing/solving issues like this so you know what to leave alone and what to go after (yes, it is described somewhere....but some people just need to see it!)

-Bryan, regaining sanity!
2005 Ford Duratec 2.0L (Stock, using stock CAM and VR sensors and locations)
MS3X 3.57
Ford COP sequential ignition (Jbperf 4 channel driver board)
GSXR750 ITB's
beast02
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by beast02 »

Further documentation for those possibly finding this thread. While it may have been a fuel issue causing my initial problem (too much), I believe the battery could have been playing into it.

I've been beating my head over settings for the last month trying to get it to work with success followed by failure. This finally led me to suspect something with the battery.

I performed 7 tests of a warm car firing up with the battery on the charger and it fired up first try 6 of those times, the one time it didn't the charge needle wasn't as high up. I should note this is an Optima which turns out (just found out) that you can't charge like a normal battery. So, now I have to see if charging it the impromptu way fixes the battery charging issue (jumper normal lead acid to Optima, then connect battery charger to lead acid) or if I have shot the Optima from charging and draining repeatedly from all this testing.

Things are looking up. BTW, I noticed the cranking taper curve to have quite an impact on initial cranking PW if not set right, so if you are troubleshooting, look in to that and see how this adds PW to your cranking cycles.

-Bryan
2005 Ford Duratec 2.0L (Stock, using stock CAM and VR sensors and locations)
MS3X 3.57
Ford COP sequential ignition (Jbperf 4 channel driver board)
GSXR750 ITB's
Blown88GT
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by Blown88GT »

beast02 wrote:...This finally led me to suspect something with the battery.

I performed 7 tests of a warm car firing up with the battery on the charger and it fired up first try 6 of those times, the one time it didn't the charge needle wasn't as high up. I should note this is an Optima which turns out (just found out) that you can't charge like a normal battery. So, now I have to see if charging it the impromptu way fixes the battery charging issue (jumper normal lead acid to Optima, then connect battery charger to lead acid) or if I have shot the Optima from charging and draining repeatedly from all this testing...
https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/s ... gm-battery
Red top, yellow top or blue top?
How old?
1988 Mustang GT, 59k miles, Orig Owner
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rukavina
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by rukavina »

I work in a theme park and we use optima batteries on one of our coasters. We charge every night and run lights/audio all day and repeat. So right side up & upside down and high vibrations etc and they last but we do use optima chargers meant for those specific batteries
4wheel drive 454 vortec on ms2 w/gpio for 4l80e Trans control
beast02
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by beast02 »

It's a red top and a year old but has gone through charging/draining over and over with the wrong type of charger (never knew it needed special treatment).

Got a new battery last night so hopefully tonight I can get out for a drive and find out the truth!
2005 Ford Duratec 2.0L (Stock, using stock CAM and VR sensors and locations)
MS3X 3.57
Ford COP sequential ignition (Jbperf 4 channel driver board)
GSXR750 ITB's
turbo conversion
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by turbo conversion »

The red top battery is not designed to discharge and recharge, that will kill it eventually.

David
1976 Datsun 280Z L28ET Garrett GT35R T3-T04E stage3 50 trim 63 A/R housing custom grind cam 2000-6000 rpm 440cc injectors intercooled 18 lbs. boost
3" exhaust turbo back LC-1 o2 sensor Hallman manual boost controller EDIS 6 ignition batch fire 60mm throttle body 5 spd T5 borg warner 3.54 lsd
Blown88GT
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by Blown88GT »

The yellow top is superior to the red top. It's designated as a "deep discharge" AGM battery, but many use it as a starting battery. The blue top is the same as a yellow top but has screw terminals for marine use.
1988 Mustang GT, 59k miles, Orig Owner
ProCharger 600B I/C, 12psi, FRP Hdrs, Flwmstr F2, 3G Alt, Contour Fan & DCC, 3.55's, Prog Sprg, Subfms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5's, Bridgestone RE-71R 245/40R17, Crane HI-6, Kirban FPR, MS2, DIYPNPF60, Spartan 2, C&L76mm blo-thru MAF, 47lb FRP-LU47
rukavina
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Re: Hot/Warm start issues

Post by rukavina »

Blue top .... roller coaster tested
4wheel drive 454 vortec on ms2 w/gpio for 4l80e Trans control
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