time based ae not working/ problem resolved

Tuning concepts, methods, tips etc.

Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr

kaeman
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:31 am
Location: NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

time based ae not working/ problem resolved

Post by kaeman »

I am getting the engine running again, but I am having a problem with my AE, I am using time based AE and I am hitting tpsdot measurements that should trigger extra fuel, but the AE doesn't show any enrichment, just 100% throughout the log. Here is my current data-log and msq. I am hitting mapdots over 700 and tpsdots over 1100, both events should have been able to trigger enrichments of 4%, but the AE percentage never changes from 100. It must be a simple setting I haven't turned on.
2017-07-15analyzed warmup stepper afr.msq
2017-07-15_11_modified.msl
Last edited by kaeman on Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
kaeman
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:31 am
Location: NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

Re: time based ae not working

Post by kaeman »

Any idea where to look, I don't know what changed or could have changed to cause the AE not to add fuel, with the mapdot or tpsdot as high as they are.
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
turbo conversion
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1281
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:22 pm
Location: White House, TN USA

Re: time based ae not working

Post by turbo conversion »

I don't know if this is an issue or not but when I view your data log the Crank-ASE-Warm etc do not appear in the viewer.

It also appears that a large portion of the other parameters are not present either. :?

David
1976 Datsun 280Z L28ET Garrett GT35R T3-T04E stage3 50 trim 63 A/R housing custom grind cam 2000-6000 rpm 440cc injectors intercooled 18 lbs. boost
3" exhaust turbo back LC-1 o2 sensor Hallman manual boost controller EDIS 6 ignition batch fire 60mm throttle body 5 spd T5 borg warner 3.54 lsd
kaeman
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:31 am
Location: NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

Re: time based ae not working

Post by kaeman »

I trimmed the datalog to reduce its size and the part of the log I used was fully warmed up, and had been about 8 minutes into a drive, the part of the log was chosen because it shows the high tpsdot and the high map dot and the AE staying at 100 % or 0 added fuel. I have looked at all the settings I could think of and I just don't know why with a tpsdot in the 1100 range I got no enrichment.
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
Yves
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1505
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:23 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: time based ae not working

Post by Yves »

Kaeman, TPSdot of 1100 seems very high. I have to use 20 in my case in order to have some TPS based AE. Look at what your TPSdot is doing in the logs (haven't check - sorry no time). You set it just above the TPSdot you have in normal circumstances and idle. Mine stays well below 15 usually.
kaeman
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:31 am
Location: NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

Re: time based ae not working

Post by kaeman »

my lower end for an accel pulse is 213, I am hitting 1100 without a accel pulse... I should be getting a 4 % shot of fuel at that point. but it isn't showing any added fuel pulse.
no matter how hard I hit the throttle I am not getting a accel pulse....
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
Yves
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1505
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:23 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: time based ae not working

Post by Yves »

kaeman wrote:my lower end for an accel pulse is 213, I am hitting 1100 without a accel pulse... I should be getting a 4 % shot of fuel at that point. but it isn't showing any added fuel pulse.
no matter how hard I hit the throttle I am not getting a accel pulse....
Try using a mix of mapdot and tpsdot. It might be that your mapdot triggers faster at lower tp openings.

Is this still you ITB setup ?
kaeman
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:31 am
Location: NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

Re: time based ae not working

Post by kaeman »

no I am currently running an accufab 4 barrel on a rhs open plenum intake manifold. The itb manifold was a lot easier to tune...... but the difference in the intake air path at low throttle opening(cruising speeds 2% to 6% tps 40 mph to 70 mph) one bank ran a full couple points richer ie 12.1 vs 14.1 until 10% tps then they balanced out and ran with in a .10 of each other ie 14.1 to 14.2...
I don't know of anything that changed, but I upgraded the firmware from 1.3.4 to 1.4.1 and changed the manifold. I used to have accel enrichment using the same ae settings but now its not providing an accel pulse.
I admit the tuning processes for the 4 barrel manifold with the large camshaft overlap (warm up, iac, accel) has been a lot more difficult than the itb's were( I am actually contemplating changing back to the itb's, I ran the itb manifold for more than ten years).
I went this way to get better street manners.
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
Yves
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1505
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:23 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: time based ae not working

Post by Yves »

I couldn't get my itb's ae setup correctly with only tps ae. The problem was that at low rpm the throttle didn't have to move a lot to create a whole lot of airflow. Mapdot did a better job at estimating the airflow that went in at those points. Seems something similar with your setup. I use a 50/50 tpsdot and mapdot mix, where the tp ae is more involved with larger tp movements.

Personally it could be that this has something to do with the cam you're running and it's overlap.
kaeman
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:31 am
Location: NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

Re: time based ae not working

Post by kaeman »

anybody know of a reason time based ae would not trigger when set to add fuel at about 200 % and getting tpsdot readings in excess of 800% without a enrichment pulse.
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
pit_celica
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 682
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:12 pm

Re: time based ae not working

Post by pit_celica »

Could you try with a obscene %accel like 50% or something like this? You could also lenghten the "Accel Time" to something like 0.5s.

Also, maybe there is a bug when both "Full accel below" and "Zero accel above" are at the same value. Maybe try 5900 and 6000 RPM.

Another dumb question, but I need to ask at this point, did you actually burn this MSQ into the ECU with the enabled AE?

Sam
kaeman
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:31 am
Location: NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

Re: time based ae not working

Post by kaeman »

yes, all the ecu burns have had the ae enabled, when they were burned... I have the real low ae percentages as in this msq because I used to have it running on my itb hilborn intake and the ve table and map response worked well for accel enrich, but my map smoothing was at 100 % with this intake manifold I have to lower that value to about 40 %..because of the overlap in the manifold plenum..
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
kaeman
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:31 am
Location: NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

Re: time based ae not working

Post by kaeman »

I am still having problems with AE not working, but I have moved on to closed loop idle, that function seems to be working ok for a first try, during my loading of the tune I had the ecu say that the tune wasn't saved because of the controller going offline before all the settings could be saved.
When trying to do a little data logging with the computer I had the ecu not connect and had to reconnect by going into the communication settings and finding my controller. These troubles started after windows 10 made a major update to my laptop operating system.
Do I need to reload the firmware, or possibly update to a newer version.
I wonder if my problems with my acceleration enrichment, may be a glitch in the firmware.
Could you look at my tune again and see if you can see any setting that would cause the AE to be inconsistent, it randomly works may one out of fifteen times that it should have triggered.
2017-08-12_18.01.00.msq
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
jsmcortina
Site Admin
Posts: 39585
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
Location: Birmingham, UK
Contact:

Re: time based ae not working

Post by jsmcortina »

Please attach matching datalog.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
elaw
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 2926
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:20 am
Location: Wilmington, MA

Re: time based ae not working

Post by elaw »

jsmcortina wrote:Please attach matching datalog.

James
Seconded... we really need to see a log that matches the tune file.

I'll also second what another poster said: although theoretically it should work, it's very unusual to have the "zero accel above" and "full accel below" values set to the same number and I wonder if that could be the cause of the problem. Even if it's only for a test, try setting "full accel below" to a lower number like 4000 RPM and see if it helps.
Eric Law
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking

Be alert! America needs more lerts.
kaeman
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:31 am
Location: NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

Re: time based ae not working

Post by kaeman »

Here is a log I made this morning, with the tune loaded yesterday, this log has been trimmed to remove some warmup and easy driving before the posted hard acceleration tests. there are 3 launches with a tps dot above 300 and still no Accel pulse. Do you think I might have corrupted firmware?

2017-08-13_121_modified.msl
2017-08-12_18.01.00.msq
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
elaw
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 2926
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:20 am
Location: Wilmington, MA

Re: time based ae not working

Post by elaw »

And... you've still got the "full accel" and "zero accel" values set to the same number!
Capture.PNG
You need to change the "full accel below" number to something significantly less than the "zero accel" number and let us know if that changes anything.
Eric Law
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking

Be alert! America needs more lerts.
kaeman
Master MS/Extra'er
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:31 am
Location: NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

Re: time based ae not working

Post by kaeman »

elaw wrote:And... you've still got the "full accel" and "zero accel" values set to the same number!
Capture.PNG
You need to change the "full accel below" number to something significantly less than the "zero accel" number and let us know if that changes anything.
.

I have used that same number in the full Accel below and zero Accel above fields for about ten years, the Accel enrich used to work in all the previous tunes. I noticed that the enrichment wasn't working after changing to the new manifold this year, the previous manifold was ITB hilborns.
I will change the values to full Accel below 4500 rpm, and zero Accel above 6000 rpm. I haven't changed them prior to this because the 6000/6000 setting has worked for years. As stated previously it will randomly apply the enrichment about 1 time in 15 to 20 triggering events, just not every time the tps and map dot values should have triggered it.
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
jsmcortina
Site Admin
Posts: 39585
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
Location: Birmingham, UK
Contact:

Re: time based ae not working

Post by jsmcortina »

I only had time for a very look and it seems related to your settings of 0 for "end pulsewidth" and 0 for taper. Please try using the defaults instead.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
elaw
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 2926
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:20 am
Location: Wilmington, MA

Re: time based ae not working

Post by elaw »

jsmcortina wrote:I only had time for a very look and it seems related to your settings of 0 for "end pulsewidth" and 0 for taper. Please try using the defaults instead.

James
James,

If that's the case you probably should change the tooltips... at least in MS3 1.4.0 they recommend "0" for both of those values.
Eric Law
1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking

Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Post Reply