MS3 Pro Pulsewidth drops to zero under load

[Porsche930Targa]

Hi Guys

Background, car is a Porsche 911 Turbo, running MS3 Pro, full sequential. 57lbs. Hi Z injectors. I have AE turned off. I have the idle and cruise maps dialed in, everytime I try to go into boost or apply a heavy load, the car falls flat on it's face. I can see from my datalogs that injector pulsewidth is dropping to zero. I was wondering if you guys could check out my base map, and datalog, to see if there is something I am missing.

Having trouble uploading datalog. I will send later tonight.

How do I capture only a portion of the datalog in MLV?

Regards

John

[grom_e30]

boost cut is set wrong. its set for 80kpa before you are even in boost

[billr]

In your boost settings you have "fuel cut" at 80 kPa MAP; that is less than full atmospheric manifold pressure. In "boost", MAP will be 101.3 kPa and greater.

[kjones6039]

How do I capture only a portion of the datalog in MLV?

I don't have time to look it up right now, but there is a facility in MLV that can be use to trim a log file. Just look through the menu items.

Of course you can always ZIP a large file also.

Ken

[Porsche930Targa]

In your boost settings you have "fuel cut" at 80 kPa MAP; that is less than full atmospheric manifold pressure. In "boost", MAP will be 101.3 kPa and greater.

Hi Bill

Is that under Boost Control Settings?
I thought that it was turned off, because I don't have my Boost controller installed yet.
Will it initiate if turned off? Or is it the Over Boost settings?

I will double check tonight.

Cheers guys


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[Porsche930Targa]

How do I capture only a portion of the datalog in MLV?

I don't have time to look it up right now, but there is a facility in MLV that can be use to trim a log file. Just look through the menu items.

Of course you can always ZIP a large file also.

Ken

Thanks Ken


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[grom_e30]

you can turn the over boost off if you want by setting 'overboost protection' to none. or you could set the kpa number to a realistic figure, if you want it to fut fuel to save your engine if you hit a bar of boost say set it to about 200kpa.

[turbo conversion]

You have Boost Control Settings turned off but Over Boost will still be active.

Set it a few kpa above the highest kpa you will see in boost, you want a little head room.

David

[Porsche930Targa]

You have Boost Control Settings turned off but Over Boost will still be active.

Set it a few kpa above the highest kpa you will see in boost, you want a little head room.

David

Thanks, I 'be been struggling with this the last week. Thought I was really rich.
I am really liking MS3 Pro.

What are thoughts on running 2 VE Maps.
1 for low RPMs up to 3000, and one for high RPMs 3000 to 6750 above 101 kPa?


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[jsmcortina]

What are thoughts on running 2 VE Maps.
1 for low RPMs up to 3000, and one for high RPMs 3000 to 6750 above 101 kPa?

Start with one table. You can move to two if you REALLY need to. Otherwise you are just making things more complicated.

James

[Porsche930Targa]

What are thoughts on running 2 VE Maps.
1 for low RPMs up to 3000, and one for high RPMs 3000 to 6750 above 101 kPa?

Start with one table. You can move to two if you REALLY need to. Otherwise you are just making things more complicated.

James

Thanks for the advice James


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[Porsche930Targa]

Checked the Datalogs and it is going to zero pulse width at 80 kpa according to map. Hope to get out tomorrow night for some tuning.
Any suggestions for tuning of boost map? Is it okay to use Autotune feature? What is best strategy?


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[Dennis930]

930Targa,

If you have been on Pelican Parts 930 turbocharging and supercharging forum, there have been people posting their AFR. Timing and VE tables. You would have to do a search. You can start with something that works for other 930's and tune from there. There are differences depending on whether you are using a Carrera manifold, engine size, twin plug, turbo size, what fuel used and amount of boost used. My tune is based on 3.0 liter, Carrera manifold, twin plug, small quick spooling turbo, running 1.2bar boost, using Idle VE and Idle advance tables and EBC. Note that twin plug timing is about 6 - 8* retarded compared to single plug and that the idle region in VE table and Spark Advance tables is tuned for normal driving, not for idle when using the Idle VE and Idle Advance tables. Are you using an idle control valve with MS3? I can post my MSQ if you are interested, but I do not have on this laptop.

[Dennis930]

930Targa,
Also, to tune in the boost areas I recorded several datalogs making pulls to max RPM and boost, but starting at lower boost levels first. Then analyze the logs in MegaTune and adjust the VE table bins based on actual AFR verses the Target AFR. This is difficult to do on the street because a 930 will do almost 90mph in second and then there is third gear. The quickest (safest) way is to take the car to a dyno.
I would recommend that you hook up VSS if you have not. You just have to piggy back a wire from the speed sensor connection in the transmission tunnel (use the wire that does not go to ground) and connect it to MS3, then enter 8 pulses per wheel revolution, axle ratio, gear ratio's and tire size in TS and put speedometer gage on the TS screen. It will also tell you what gear you are in.

[Porsche930Targa]

930Targa,
Also, to tune in the boost areas I recorded several datalogs making pulls to max RPM and boost, but starting at lower boost levels first. Then analyze the logs in MegaTune and adjust the VE table bins based on actual AFR verses the Target AFR. This is difficult to do on the street because a 930 will do almost 90mph in second and then there is third gear. The quickest (safest) way is to take the car to a dyno.
I would recommend that you hook up VSS if you have not. You just have to piggy back a wire from the speed sensor connection in the transmission tunnel (use the wire that does not go to ground) and connect it to MS3, then enter 8 pulses per wheel revolution, axle ratio, gear ratio's and tire size in TS and put speedometer gage on the TS screen. It will also tell you what gear you are in.

Thanks Dennis

I was thinking about dynoing my car.

I was also thinking about hooking up the VSS. I guess it ties into setting up a EBC?

I still have to install my EBC. Are you running a EBC?

Regards

John


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[Porsche930Targa]

930Targa,

If you have been on Pelican Parts 930 turbocharging and supercharging forum, there have been people posting their AFR. Timing and VE tables. You would have to do a search. You can start with something that works for other 930's and tune from there. There are differences depending on whether you are using a Carrera manifold, engine size, twin plug, turbo size, what fuel used and amount of boost used. My tune is based on 3.0 liter, Carrera manifold, twin plug, small quick spooling turbo, running 1.2bar boost, using Idle VE and Idle advance tables and EBC. Note that twin plug timing is about 6 - 8* retarded compared to single plug and that the idle region in VE table and Spark Advance tables is tuned for normal driving, not for idle when using the Idle VE and Idle Advance tables. Are you using an idle control valve with MS3? I can post my MSQ if you are interested, but I do not have on this laptop.

His Dennis

Yes I am using a Bosch 3 wire ICV. My timing tables were reviewed and tweaked by GJF on Pelican. Gave me some great insight on twin plug timing.

I have haven't played around with Idle VE
Or Idle Advance yet. It's a lot of information to digest.

That would be great if you could post your MSQ.

Thanks

John


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[Porsche930Targa]

930Targa,

If you have been on Pelican Parts 930 turbocharging and supercharging forum, there have been people posting their AFR. Timing and VE tables. You would have to do a search. You can start with something that works for other 930's and tune from there. There are differences depending on whether you are using a Carrera manifold, engine size, twin plug, turbo size, what fuel used and amount of boost used. My tune is based on 3.0 liter, Carrera manifold, twin plug, small quick spooling turbo, running 1.2bar boost, using Idle VE and Idle advance tables and EBC. Note that twin plug timing is about 6 - 8* retarded compared to single plug and that the idle region in VE table and Spark Advance tables is tuned for normal driving, not for idle when using the Idle VE and Idle Advance tables. Are you using an idle control valve with MS3? I can post my MSQ if you are interested, but I do not have on this laptop.

His Dennis

Yes I am using a Bosch 3 wire ICV. My timing tables were reviewed and tweaked by GJF on Pelican. Gave me some great insight on twin plug timing.

I have haven't played around with Idle VE
Or Idle Advance yet. It's a lot of information to digest.

That would be great if you could post your MSQ.

Thanks

John


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What is best strategy for AE? Right now I have it turned off.


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[Porsche930Targa]

Hi Dennis

It would be great if you could post your msq.

Thanks

John

[Porsche930Targa]

Had the car out this morning. Made adjustment to Overboost setting, car is now hitting the Boost bins. Boost areas are rich, I would reduce row 5% at a time.
Car is definitely getting dialed in.
The car is much quieter and smoother. So far I am running without any AE.

I plan on going to a warmer plug. Currently running a 8
Doing the VSS hookup.
Oil cooler fan relay
EBC install.
Shift light.
Engine light.
Knock sensor

Any other suggestions?

The car has never run this good while I have owned it. It's a pleasure to drive.

Thanks to everyone who has given me guidance.


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[Dennis930]

John,

If you going to be running a lot of boost I would keep the "8" plugs.

Where are you going to install the knock sensor(s) on the engine?

I use 100% TPS based AE. I still need to post my msq.

For EBC, I bought a high frequency MAC valve that operates at 39hz verses 19hz for a stand MAC valve. The way MS3 boost control works is that full boost pressure is applied to the top of the wastegate (100% DC is applied to the valve to keep the vent port closed) until you get to the target delta P, which I have set to 40kpa. When boost is within 40kpa of the target, the valve duty cycle switches to a value from the "initial values" table that you tune from the setup mode. These values have to be very close to what is needed regulate boost for each RPM and Load bin. Then PID takes over to tweek the DC to meet/keep the target. Adjustment of the slider is needed to fine tune the operation. If there are still issues, then the "advance mode" can be selected to fine tune the PID parameters. I had trouble with overboost spikes when shifting from redline to the next gear. The turbo would spool back up so quick that it was like the system could not catch it. I increased boost cutout from 20 to 35kpa over target which helped but did not fix it. I finally came to the conclusion that since the Porsche wastegate volume is so great compared to others, that the dome could not vent fast enough through the MAC valve and 1/4" hose. So I went to a high frequency MAC valve and made my hose runs short as possible. I also left the "muffler" off the vent port to reduce restrictions to a minimum. After that I was able to tune boost control with just the slider in the "basic mode". The fact that I am running 1.2bar may have contributed to this issue (more pressure to vent).

VSS is needed if you want boost by gear. I also use it for "speed" being a condition to enter idle control (set for 3MPH). It is handy to see speed in your data logs when looking at some specific problem. Be aware that VSS is much more accurate than the VDO speedometer, the speedometer will read 5 to 10MPH fast which is a known issue for these cars. I installed speedometer calibrator inline (downstream from the VSS connection to MS3) to correct my speedometer readings. My speedometer was not linear so I adjusted it to be accurate in the 60 - 80MPH area to avoid a ticket. Also, the tach reading in TS is more accurate than the tach in the car. There is a setting in TS to adjust the tach output from MS3 to the car's tach. I think mine is set to 94%, but all tach's will be a little different, mine was not linear, so I set to accurate when near redline. So, my tach reads a little high at idle but I know the engine is turning 950 - 1000 RPM's from TS.