BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

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BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby Slider » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:02 pm

Just completed the upgrade to Trickflow 240 heads and full roller cam and lifters. Cam is a .571 lift on both with 252-258 dur@50 sep 110. This is the custom grind roller cam from 440 Source. Got the engine fired up on the old tune with stock heads and purple performance Mopar cam. Doesn't run too well though...LOL. Super lean at idle if it will even idle and wildly rich as load goes up. Its just barely drivable. Went for first run in town tonight but log didn't save as kept losing the connection to the MS3X as we were driving.Attaching tune and will try again tomorrow night for a log of the run.

Was hoping someone had a similar engine setup with really low vac at idle I could get this thing closer with so I can actually tune it. So far out right now I am not sure I can get it working well enough to get a log. Any input would be appreciated. Thank you.
Attachments
2017-08-14_21.59.33.msq
(284.19 KiB) Downloaded 28 times
69 Charger R/T clone,'77 440 block,forged stock crank/rods,Speedpro L2355F forged pistons,Comp Cam 145-1714 Roller,Comp 145-1008 Hydraulic Roller Lifters, Manton pushrods 3/8 x .060 wall,1.5 CNC Roller Rockers,Trickflow 240 Powerport head,Edelbrock Pro-Flo XT EFI Intake Manifold 7144,MS3X Megasquirt
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby Matt Cramer » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:10 pm

Can you post a data log of what's going on? This will give me more to go on.
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby Slider » Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:32 pm

Quick log of almost idle attached. Checking stepper valve as cannot get a true idle without adding throttle. I'm missing something here. This system ran very nice on the closer to stock engine. With the new heads compression went from 10.12:1 up to 10.63:1 now. Flow on the heads went WAY up and the cam was a major change but everything else is the same. Very confused! LOL Guess getting it running sweet with the closer to stock engine was too easy.......
Attachments
2017-08-16_20.18.38.zip
(247.92 KiB) Downloaded 16 times
69 Charger R/T clone,'77 440 block,forged stock crank/rods,Speedpro L2355F forged pistons,Comp Cam 145-1714 Roller,Comp 145-1008 Hydraulic Roller Lifters, Manton pushrods 3/8 x .060 wall,1.5 CNC Roller Rockers,Trickflow 240 Powerport head,Edelbrock Pro-Flo XT EFI Intake Manifold 7144,MS3X Megasquirt
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby billr » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:30 pm

If you are losing connection with TS, it isn't because of anything in the tune. You need to resolve that issue first, it is a huge hint that you have a wiring problem.
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby Slider » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:49 pm

Solved the connection issue. Can't run the bluetooth at the same time as the USB to the computer. Confuses things...LOL Solid connection now and slowly getting it closer to running. Put in another 10 minutes tonight before the neighbors shut it down :-) Getting home a little late from harvest to get much time on it right now.

What would be best to use on an engine that is not creating a lot of vacuum at idle? Alpha-N?
69 Charger R/T clone,'77 440 block,forged stock crank/rods,Speedpro L2355F forged pistons,Comp Cam 145-1714 Roller,Comp 145-1008 Hydraulic Roller Lifters, Manton pushrods 3/8 x .060 wall,1.5 CNC Roller Rockers,Trickflow 240 Powerport head,Edelbrock Pro-Flo XT EFI Intake Manifold 7144,MS3X Megasquirt
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby kjones6039 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:07 pm

Your idle MAP seems awfully high even considering a big cam! Are you certain that you don't have any leaks?

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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby Slider » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:19 pm

Went on the hunt for leaks. Even blocked off the brake booster to see if there was something there or downline. Could not find any leaks.

Came up with some info researching. The throttle body I am using is off a Yukon 350CID engine, My idle issue was duplicated on a Big Block 454 CID engine that was EFI'ed as well. The IAC will not open enough to run the 454 with a strong cam in it. They ended up drilling a bleeder hole in the throttle plate to get enough air in to get a decent idle out of it. Just to test it we propped open the throttle plate and I have been able to get an idle out of it.

Just started the log when my computer ran out of battery. Will get a new log tomorrow and upload it. Will try to get the bleeder hole completed as well.

Side note: I double double checked the timing for the engine. Advance stated in tunerstudio matches exactly the engine timing off the damper.
69 Charger R/T clone,'77 440 block,forged stock crank/rods,Speedpro L2355F forged pistons,Comp Cam 145-1714 Roller,Comp 145-1008 Hydraulic Roller Lifters, Manton pushrods 3/8 x .060 wall,1.5 CNC Roller Rockers,Trickflow 240 Powerport head,Edelbrock Pro-Flo XT EFI Intake Manifold 7144,MS3X Megasquirt
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby kaeman » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:52 pm

Hey Slider, the cam/heads change is just like putting in a completely different engine... I just did the same thing, only mine was larger cam and 4 barrel throttle body with single plane intake manifold. I had to make a completely new tune, all the air flows were completely different, through out the entire rpm range. So new ve table, idle settings, advance tables everything needed to be changed. my engine idles at about 64 kpa in park/neutral, but when I put it in gear it idles at 74 kpa, I have had to up my idle rpm because of the differences... used to idle around 850... now cold is 1200 and full warm is 1050ish. Just to save yourself lots of painful tuning.... remember that your old settings are pretty much useless on your new engine...
Does your throttle body have an idle stop screw? sometimes they are under a plug to make them tamper proof.
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby Slider » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:51 pm

You are not kidding kaeman, this thing is a totally different engine.....

OK, little more progress but not much. Bleeder hole enlarged to allow a idle. 750-800 rpm on its own now. AFR is all over the map, not sure if I even trust it. With the combination of lift, duration and overlap I am not sure if I can trust it at idle anyways. Posting a log and current tune. The advance at idle is most happy at 32 before. way too much so its backed off now. Alternator load just about kills it and drags the idle below 500 when on full charge. It is a 160amp charger but wow should have enough power to run it at any rpm. Not sure if I should change the control to alpha-n or run the idle control with open or closed loop. Didn't think this setup would be this hard to tune.
Attachments
2017-08-24_19.59.01.msl
Log at almost idle. Why does it keep jumping to cruise instead of staying at idle state?
(857.96 KiB) Downloaded 17 times
2017-08-24_21.49.34.msq
(284.91 KiB) Downloaded 17 times
69 Charger R/T clone,'77 440 block,forged stock crank/rods,Speedpro L2355F forged pistons,Comp Cam 145-1714 Roller,Comp 145-1008 Hydraulic Roller Lifters, Manton pushrods 3/8 x .060 wall,1.5 CNC Roller Rockers,Trickflow 240 Powerport head,Edelbrock Pro-Flo XT EFI Intake Manifold 7144,MS3X Megasquirt
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby Slider » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:35 pm

Looking over the log I noticed the TPS seems to be jumping around a lot even when my foot is completely off the throttle. Idle is in and out continuously, advance drops just as throttle is applied (would this explain the loss of rpm when the throttle is blipped?) Advance is jumping from 30-40 before? What the heck is causing that???? LOL
69 Charger R/T clone,'77 440 block,forged stock crank/rods,Speedpro L2355F forged pistons,Comp Cam 145-1714 Roller,Comp 145-1008 Hydraulic Roller Lifters, Manton pushrods 3/8 x .060 wall,1.5 CNC Roller Rockers,Trickflow 240 Powerport head,Edelbrock Pro-Flo XT EFI Intake Manifold 7144,MS3X Megasquirt
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby rukavina » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:46 pm

From my limited knowledge you need clean signals. If your tps is jumping around most likely you have other things going on you have not noticed yet. Get a clean power supply to everything . Follow grounding guidelines, isolate noise sources etc.
4wheel drive 454 vortec on ms2 w/gpio for 4l80e Trans control
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby Slider » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:15 pm

This setup ran clean and smooth before the new cam and heads went on. It was fully tested for quite a few miles and ran great, then the cam went south. The only things that changed were the cam and heads. I have a spare TPS I will install and see if that settles out the TPS signal. grounding and power supply are solid. Grounding guidelines were followed to the letter.

How does the system determine idle state (or any other state for that matter). What are the factors to trigger each state? Thank you all for your help!
69 Charger R/T clone,'77 440 block,forged stock crank/rods,Speedpro L2355F forged pistons,Comp Cam 145-1714 Roller,Comp 145-1008 Hydraulic Roller Lifters, Manton pushrods 3/8 x .060 wall,1.5 CNC Roller Rockers,Trickflow 240 Powerport head,Edelbrock Pro-Flo XT EFI Intake Manifold 7144,MS3X Megasquirt
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby quan3165 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:35 am

Well it doesn't look like you are using closed-loop idle, so not much changes in the tune currently when you're near your idle RPM.

I would get the thing to idle around 900. I would expect to see a MAP in the 60-70 kPa range at idle and this RPM based on a similar engine combo I had. Crank your throttle/butterfly valves open with the idle adjustment screw assuming your throttle body has this- just like adjusting idle on a carb. Then tune idle area of the VE table, then start fine-tuning with the CL idle settings and IAC while dialing out your idle stop adjustment to maintain 900.
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby kaeman » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:18 pm

Hey Slider, how many map sensors are you using, I see three in your configuration, 1 full time baro at js5, your main map sensor at mainboard input(the one inside the ms3), and one at js4. what does the one at js4 do? I thought you were only supposed to turn that on if you were using a manifold with 2 independent runners and no balance tube.
Also what fuel are you running, 14.7 is stoichiometric for gasoline, your setting in the general settings is 13.7.
I noticed that you have primary load as speed density and secondary load as alpha n.
Are you using a maf sensor? I was under the impression that when using a maf sensor the ve table was set to 100 in all the bins and then fine tuned later.
Is this a turbo charged engine, I see your ve tables go to 400 pka.
Why is your stepper motor set up to open farther as the engine gets warmer, usually the the stepper is open when cold to get extra air for warming up and as the engine warms up the stepper closes until it is fully closed at full warm.
You can make new axis for the ve tables so that they are more suited to your particular engine, like kpa from 20 to 105 and engine rpm from 500 to 6000. if your redline is 5600 then you might as well make the table end at 6000, give yourself more bins in the idle cruising sections of the tables.
What is the purpose of the second ve table in your tune, I don't see table switching turned on or anything like that.
What firmware version are you using?
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby quan3165 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:19 am

Kaeman is right... I suggest dumping this tune and starting a new tune/project. Lots of abnormal settings for what I think you are trying to run. Ignition advance table is also beyond conservative to the point I don't think it would run very well up top. The default table is conservative enough for your engine as a starting point.

From the default tune: I would ONLY adjust engine and sequential settings and REQ_FUEL, make sure your ignition options are right (also verify timing with a light), calibrate sensors, and use that as your baseline tune. Adjust one setting at a time (esp if you aren't 100% sure what it does) and drive it. When you see improvements due to your changes, save the msq file to your RestorePoints folder and I like to add a brief description at the end of the filename of what was better about it.
Last edited by quan3165 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BBC 440 Magnum with Trickflow 240 heads

Postby Slider » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:37 pm

Wow, that is a detailed run through on issues!

1st off thank you Quan. I got the idle tuned in fairly well by cracking the butterfly open, tuning, then drilling the butterfly with a bleeder hole big enough to get a 700 rpm idle with the iac closed all the way. Now with the IAC all the way open I can get an idle at 1250-1300 warm and with it adjusted I have a nice smooth 900 rpm idle that holds well in or out of gear.

I seem to have made some pretty good advances in the current tune so I am going to try and make it work now. Last resort I will dump it and try a default tune. I have attached the revised tune with the advance table sort of like a dizzy would handle it. Timing has been verified with a timing light, sensors have been calibrated.Just the MAF to figure out why its not reading. Adding the description to the save is a great idea. Think I will steal that one :-)

2nd thank you Kaeman, you picked out a bunch of issues...LOL
JS4 is not connected to anything. Not sure when that got turned on. Haven't used it in the tune so hopefully it wasn't affecting anything anyways.
I have stoich set to 13.7 for 2 reasons. Wanted to be very conservative and run the tune rich to start with and the 440 on carb always ran best a little rich. Given its a totally different engine now I am not sure what it is going to like but its running much better already.
MAF is installed and connected however I am not getting a reading off it for some reason. Haven't solved that yet. Is there something in the tune it is affecting right now????
Next step for this engine is quad turbo. Looking to install 4 of the "ecoboost" turbos, 2 per cylinder, that's the plan anyways. I have 2 so far, waiting for the local wrecking yard to get another pair in. That's why the "boost" is in the table.
I had the stepper setup wrong in that tune and have since changed it and it is correct now. I was trying it both ways before because it did not increase the idle no matter what I did due to the bleed hole being to small. IAC wide open and idle would not go over 650 rpm and it really didn't want to idle at that rpm.... Bleeder hole is big enough now to allow 700rpm idle stepper all the way closed.
I didn't realize it was so easy to change the base tables like that! I have modified the ve table to reflect your recommendation. Thats pretty cool! MS gets better and better!

Car is driving now so I can start doing a street tune at least. Blew out the rectifier in the alternator so a new one is on its way. Should have it tomorrow. The harvest is finally over and I can get back to spending a little time on the car again! Thank you all for the help. Your time is greatly appreciated.
Attachments
2017-08-29_21.36.00.msq
(285.02 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
69 Charger R/T clone,'77 440 block,forged stock crank/rods,Speedpro L2355F forged pistons,Comp Cam 145-1714 Roller,Comp 145-1008 Hydraulic Roller Lifters, Manton pushrods 3/8 x .060 wall,1.5 CNC Roller Rockers,Trickflow 240 Powerport head,Edelbrock Pro-Flo XT EFI Intake Manifold 7144,MS3X Megasquirt
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