supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Tuning concepts, methods, tips etc.

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Blown88GT
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by Blown88GT »

blown5.0tacco wrote:
Blown88GT wrote:He has multiple threads on the same build. Looks like 5 threads including this one.
If he can't keep the threads sorted out, this build is going nowhere.
And yeah, I don't know a lot about this because I'm new but I could still tell it was jacked. I'll keep the higher resolution thing in mind closer to idle too.

sorry, i thought it would be best to post in the most appropriate subforum for each individual topic. if i can just post here from now on i will as long as nobody cares?

here is my most recent tune. i used different ve, afr, and ign maps as a base since the ones i had didnt really cut it. i took your advice and stopped the fuel cutoff for now untill i can really figure it out. idles a ton better, throttle response is way better too. this seems like its coming along well now thanks almost entirely to you guys so i wanted to say thank you again. i just got the 4wd shifter mounted, i'll attach the driveshaft soon, and install a different shifter (the tacoma shifter did work until the f150 4wd shifter got in its way lol...) think ill try a foxbody mustang or something.

anyway, here is the log file and my most recent tune. after i get home and cut some of the crap out ill post the video i have of it running too.
log file (sorry it was to big)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4OWRh ... sp=sharing
Short video from today
https://youtu.be/yZWWdCte4aE
Everyone here was new when they started. You're not new anymore. There are many Ford guys here.
It's easier to follow if it's all in one thread; unless you encounter a very different problem.
It's good that disabling cutoff works better.

The only thing that recent tuning has done is fine tune injector characteristics for Dead Time & Battery Correction Voltage without actually running measurements. The default values work but seems to work better with the calculations from this Google Drive. We'll call this advanced tuning (if you're ready). Most of us used the default values for many years.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =302838282

Your VE & Ignition Table look better but still don't extend to boost like the AFR Table. Not a problem until you actually boost.
1988 Mustang GT, 59k miles, Orig Owner
ProCharger 600B I/C, 12psi, FRP Hdrs, Flwmstr F2, 3G Alt, Contour Fan & DCC, 3.55's, Prog Sprg, Subfms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5's, Bridgestone RE-71R 245/40R17, Crane HI-6, Kirban FPR, MS2, DIYPNPF60, Spartan 2, C&L76mm blo-thru MAF, 47lb FRP-LU47
blown5.0tacco
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by blown5.0tacco »

yeah i keep reading lol. seems like i read about stuff for a day, tinker on my laptop, read more, then read some more, then actually work on the truck for like 1hr during the week haha.

i will say this, when i read about something, i always see conflicting information. like i was told when you first start messing with this, use the 12x12 tables... now that i know about using higher resolution during lower RPM's that sounds stupid, and honestly i kinda questioned in the beginning why i wouldn't want the maximum number of cells figuring it would have more detail. i keep learning tho, looking at other peoples stuff and trying to reverse engineer it or copy it and see how it affects things.

i had figured on making about 300hp max, the most expensive part of this swap so far was the microsquirt stuff. before that, i was actually showing a profit by swapping this motor into my truck. i had some things laying around like a matched maf and 24lb injectors and lightning headers that i have on it (maf not connected because i was told to start and tune using speed density first)

the injectors are ev4's the thinner ones like the explorer had but it came with 17#ers. it's still basically a stock engine, just using a 70s ford car oil pan, lightning headers, 1.7roller rockers, cleaned up gt40p heads, ported lower gt40 intake, m90 blower, and 65mm maf. also, the fuel pressure is at about 70psi still because thats how the explorer was setup and the blower manifold has no room for a mustang style fuel rail. it's regulated at the tank and i have a pretty hefty fuel pump for what its worth, i feel like the injectors will probably be ok for a while until i get this to the point where i can drive it. i have a few other things i need to take care of on it and thats where my money will end up before i get bigger injectors.
2001 Tacoma with Supercharged GT40p 5.0 and 4R70W from a 2000 Mountaineer, manual transfercase from 97 f150, oil pan and pickup from a Gran Torino, and a ton of other custom stuff.
5.0Thunder
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by 5.0Thunder »

70 psi is super high base pressure. you sure the exploders use this from the factory? high fuel pressure does also lower pump horsepower capacity so keep that in mind. Looks like ol boy gave you another tune file to play with on the first page of this thread but I'll go through your tune as well and see what I come up with.

Coincidentally, I also have a turbo 306 car like he does. lol
1990 Mustang: MS3Pro Gen 1, 306ci, 72mm turbo, 80lb inj, 36-1 + Cam Sync + D585 coils, World heads, TFS1 cam, GT40 intake, auto, Speed Density
1987 Mustang: MS2v3.57, direct coil control, MSD VR Dizzy, SBE, Weiand 174,190cc heads, F303 cam, TBI w/ (4) 160lb inj, GT500 MAF
Raymond_B
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by Raymond_B »

Whether the Explorer ran 70 psi or not (I am fairly sure it didn't) I would not run that much base pressure. I cut it down to the stock run of the mill Ford PSI of 38ish at idle. I'd sell the MAF and never look back, what did it come out of?
1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
http://www.buildpics.org/
Blown88GT
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by Blown88GT »

5.0Thunder wrote:70 psi is super high base pressure. you sure the exploders use this from the factory? high fuel pressure does also lower pump horsepower capacity so keep that in mind. Looks like ol boy gave you another tune file to play with on the first page of this thread but I'll go through your tune as well and see what I come up with...
Raymond_B wrote:Whether the Explorer ran 70 psi or not (I am fairly sure it didn't) I would not run that much base pressure. I cut it down to the stock run of the mill Ford PSI of 38ish at idle. I'd sell the MAF and never look back, what did it come out of?
It could be 70 psi, this is not a typical Ford configuration. Corvette's have in-tank regulators. Some vehicles have no regulators at all, the pumps regulate the pressure.
I see no reason why injectors can't run at a higher pressure, if you calculate what the new flow rate will be. 24 lbs will be around 40 lbs.

There's nothing wrong with using a MAF, if you have the calibration curves. If you've never tried it, don't knock it.
1988 Mustang GT, 59k miles, Orig Owner
ProCharger 600B I/C, 12psi, FRP Hdrs, Flwmstr F2, 3G Alt, Contour Fan & DCC, 3.55's, Prog Sprg, Subfms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5's, Bridgestone RE-71R 245/40R17, Crane HI-6, Kirban FPR, MS2, DIYPNPF60, Spartan 2, C&L76mm blo-thru MAF, 47lb FRP-LU47
Raymond_B
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by Raymond_B »

Blown88GT wrote:
5.0Thunder wrote:70 psi is super high base pressure. you sure the exploders use this from the factory? high fuel pressure does also lower pump horsepower capacity so keep that in mind. Looks like ol boy gave you another tune file to play with on the first page of this thread but I'll go through your tune as well and see what I come up with...
Raymond_B wrote:Whether the Explorer ran 70 psi or not (I am fairly sure it didn't) I would not run that much base pressure. I cut it down to the stock run of the mill Ford PSI of 38ish at idle. I'd sell the MAF and never look back, what did it come out of?
It could be 70 psi, this is not a typical Ford configuration. Corvette's have in-tank regulators. Some vehicles have no regulators at all, the pumps regulate the pressure.
I see no reason why injectors can't run at a higher pressure, if you calculate what the new flow rate will be. 24 lbs will be around 40 lbs.

There's nothing wrong with using a MAF, if you have the calibration curves. If you've never tried it, don't knock it.
With a custom setup I'd still bring the pressure down...

Oh I've tried it, I've tuned Ford EEC systems since the mid 90's, I've been through the range from Mike Wesley's software to EEC-Tuner to TwEECer to Diablosport through being a full SCT dealer. So yeah I've used MAFs and I am not a fan even in a fully tune-able EFI setup like Megasquirt.
1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
http://www.buildpics.org/
ol boy
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by ol boy »

I had okay results with MAF. Really come down to how well your injector dead time is sorted. Id like to do a MAF tune on a stocker daily car one day, NbO2. Ive always made my own transfer curve after datalogging MAF volts(adc7) in a %baro tune. Then toss the math at it. Place an unknow elemnent in a 5 in tube and drive.

Even flew a 2 stroke 120cc twin in a 35 lb plane with a ford MAF element in a 1 inch dia throttle body. Fueling was better than any alpha-n tune i could come up with.

It has its place.
306 SBFord, Torquer II EFI intake, 60 lbs injectors, 8 LS2 coils, VS Racing 7668 turbo, 4R70W, MS3x fw1.4 w/built in trans controller.
Laminar
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by Laminar »

Blown88GT wrote:
5.0Thunder wrote:70 psi is super high base pressure. you sure the exploders use this from the factory? high fuel pressure does also lower pump horsepower capacity so keep that in mind. Looks like ol boy gave you another tune file to play with on the first page of this thread but I'll go through your tune as well and see what I come up with...
Raymond_B wrote:Whether the Explorer ran 70 psi or not (I am fairly sure it didn't) I would not run that much base pressure. I cut it down to the stock run of the mill Ford PSI of 38ish at idle. I'd sell the MAF and never look back, what did it come out of?
It could be 70 psi, this is not a typical Ford configuration. Corvette's have in-tank regulators. Some vehicles have no regulators at all, the pumps regulate the pressure.
I see no reason why injectors can't run at a higher pressure, if you calculate what the new flow rate will be. 24 lbs will be around 40 lbs.
Ford switched the Explorer from return-style fuel to returnless somewhere around '98. So the early Explorer 5.0s had return style with 35-40psi fuel pressure, and the later Explorers were returnless and had 65-70psi.
There's nothing wrong with using a MAF, if you have the calibration curves. If you've never tried it, don't knock it.
I started on MAP then set up a blended table configuration where the second table used MAF. Then I set the blend to 100% MAF table and let autotune figure out the VE table to make the MAF work. I did this because I wasn't able to find MAF calibration curves for the Explorer MAF I'm using, though I think I did eventually find the right curves, I've never bothered putting them in. Since switching over to MAF, I was able to take out a ton of acceleration enrichment so the engine is more responsive and I get better mileage. I autocross this car so instant response is necessary and it's there.
tryingbe
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by tryingbe »

blown5.0tacco wrote:the fuel pressure is at about 70psi still because
Will your fuel pressure up when your intake manifold see boost?
1985 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo MicroSquirted 367whp http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=67324
blown5.0tacco
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by blown5.0tacco »

Yeah the fuel system was a returnless system and controlled the pulse width of the injectors but kept the line pressure between 65-70 psi. So no, the pressure stays basically constant. This supercharger kit was made for this motor specifically for a short time, depending on the year these came with 17#/hr. or 19#/hr. injectors, I upped them to 24's. On stock explorers just bolting on the blower guys were getting good gains with no issues. I figured I'd use the 24s I had so I could maybe get some more boost.

Also, my wideband and are gauge just came in! Hopefully I can get to my shop Monday and check my new tune and install the w/b and gauge
2001 Tacoma with Supercharged GT40p 5.0 and 4R70W from a 2000 Mountaineer, manual transfercase from 97 f150, oil pan and pickup from a Gran Torino, and a ton of other custom stuff.
ol boy
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by ol boy »

Go to deka 60s . 24lbs wont cut it for very long.
306 SBFord, Torquer II EFI intake, 60 lbs injectors, 8 LS2 coils, VS Racing 7668 turbo, 4R70W, MS3x fw1.4 w/built in trans controller.
Blown88GT
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by Blown88GT »

ol boy wrote:Go to deka 60s . 24lbs wont cut it for very long.
You don't understand. His 24's are not running at typical pressure of 40 psi, his setup uses 70 psi.
1988 Mustang GT, 59k miles, Orig Owner
ProCharger 600B I/C, 12psi, FRP Hdrs, Flwmstr F2, 3G Alt, Contour Fan & DCC, 3.55's, Prog Sprg, Subfms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5's, Bridgestone RE-71R 245/40R17, Crane HI-6, Kirban FPR, MS2, DIYPNPF60, Spartan 2, C&L76mm blo-thru MAF, 47lb FRP-LU47
ol boy
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by ol boy »

Not much to understand. Even at 70 psi he will run out of injector... I maxed out 36 lbs injector with out trying on a turboed 289. The bigger problem will be the volume the pump can support at 70psi.
306 SBFord, Torquer II EFI intake, 60 lbs injectors, 8 LS2 coils, VS Racing 7668 turbo, 4R70W, MS3x fw1.4 w/built in trans controller.
blown5.0tacco
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by blown5.0tacco »

Bigger injectors are definitely on my list. I was just pointing out that I'm a step ahead of what this blower kit was designed around.

Also, the way it's setup clearance is a issue. I need at least an ev4 style injector becase of space, there is no room for a big fuel rail either. I'll have to make this work for now until I can get some other things. Right now, getting the tranny up and running, and exhaust are on top of my list.
2001 Tacoma with Supercharged GT40p 5.0 and 4R70W from a 2000 Mountaineer, manual transfercase from 97 f150, oil pan and pickup from a Gran Torino, and a ton of other custom stuff.
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by Laminar »

Blown88GT wrote:
ol boy wrote:Go to deka 60s . 24lbs wont cut it for very long.
You don't understand. His 24's are not running at typical pressure of 40 psi, his setup uses 70 psi.
24# injectors at 70psi will support about 370hp @ 90% duty cycle. 36# injectors should cover enough power to split the 5.0 block.

But if he's still using the stock Explorer cam, he doesn't have to worry about making horsepower.
blown5.0tacco
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by blown5.0tacco »

Laminar wrote: But if he's still using the stock Explorer cam, he doesn't have to worry about making horsepower.
Lol true, I was messing with desktop dyno and the stock cam just had the best overall curve. I looked at stock mustang cams, and a couple mild street cams but they just didn't have the torque the the explorer cam had which is what I need. I might go custom or try a blower cam after my son gets older and I have more time. It is what it is for now. Just trying to button things up and get it usable.

Been getting a lot of help tuning and it's idling pretty good now. Working out a couple minor issues now too. Still looking for a shifter, and last night I pieced my exhaust together. I'll have to pick up more stainless wire and trigas now too
2001 Tacoma with Supercharged GT40p 5.0 and 4R70W from a 2000 Mountaineer, manual transfercase from 97 f150, oil pan and pickup from a Gran Torino, and a ton of other custom stuff.
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