supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Tuning concepts, methods, tips etc.

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blown5.0tacco
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supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by blown5.0tacco »

ok, i just got this thing to start (turns out the problem was a bad spot in the vr1 crank sensor wire)

the engine idles like crap, falls on its face when you tap the throttle and i'm looking around for some things to check and adjust following youtube videos and what not lol. anyway if someone could point me in the right direction i'd be very happy. my fuel table looks like it fell apart and a blind person put it back together. i've modified the afr table to add in the possible highest boost i think i'd see.

i guess one of my biggest questions is, should i be changing each cell seperatly to look for changes in all these tables? i was told i probably don't need a wide band to set this up, so i don't have one lol. and without that, i cant even buy the full version of tuner studio and use the auto tune feature right? here is the most recent log file, and i'll attach the tune to it as well as a picture of that messed up table.
Attachments
first tune attempt.msq
(117.95 KiB) Downloaded 46 times
3rd run first tune.msl
(1.49 MiB) Downloaded 38 times
2017-10-05 16.39.01.jpg
2017-10-05 16.39.01.jpg (864.04 KiB) Viewed 1596 times
2001 Tacoma with Supercharged GT40p 5.0 and 4R70W from a 2000 Mountaineer, manual transfercase from 97 f150, oil pan and pickup from a Gran Torino, and a ton of other custom stuff.
gjls
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by gjls »

Never going to be right without a wideband

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HPRE
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by HPRE »

Why is does your fuel VE table only go to 85KPA, I know you have it set higher in the AFR table, but its setup to go open loop at 70%TPS so you're on the VE table at anything over that. Your spark table is only 100Kpa as well, not correcting spark for boost?
Blown88GT
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by Blown88GT »

You're cutting fuel off at 2000rpm with MAP lower than 38 kPa, with TPS lower than 3% & CLT higher than 130.
1988 Mustang GT, 59k miles, Orig Owner
ProCharger 600B I/C, 12psi, FRP Hdrs, Flwmstr F2, 3G Alt, Contour Fan & DCC, 3.55's, Prog Sprg, Subfms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5's, Bridgestone RE-71R 245/40R17, Crane HI-6, Kirban FPR, MS2, DIYPNPF60, Spartan 2, C&L76mm blo-thru MAF, 47lb FRP-LU47
blown5.0tacco
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by blown5.0tacco »

yeah i started reading through some stuff and going into the options and changing things while watching videos and reading about good places to start. i got a little frustrated not having a a wide band o2 sensor which is my own fault but i figured i'd take the advice of the guy who sold me on everything. i need to change some base settings for sure, i just need to keep reading and changing. everything on here is exactly as it was for the base tune that tunerstudio loaded for me. i havent changed anything but maybe 2 settings.

the afr table is one of the things i setup based on reading/videos. i set it to 180kpa figuring its about 12psi of added boost and thats more then i expect to make so there is a little extra at the top. i want to set everything else up to that as well so it all matches.

as for cutting off fuel at 2000 rpm with map lower then 38kpa with tps lower then 3% and clt higher then 130... i had not noticed that, i need to go in there now and look

fuel ve table, im going to modify now. i gotta read a little more about what i wanna do here, but it should at least be set to the same 180 as the afr table right? same with spark table, setting that to 180 as well and ill look into correcting spark for boost... although i thought i had gone into boost/advanced and set that but i guess not.

this is the first car i've really messed with tuning this stuff so im sorry if i sound like i dont know anything lol. and i appreciate all the help a lot so thank you all again for bearing with me here.
2001 Tacoma with Supercharged GT40p 5.0 and 4R70W from a 2000 Mountaineer, manual transfercase from 97 f150, oil pan and pickup from a Gran Torino, and a ton of other custom stuff.
blown5.0tacco
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by blown5.0tacco »

Blown88GT wrote:You're cutting fuel off at 2000rpm with MAP lower than 38 kPa, with TPS lower than 3% & CLT higher than 130.
your talking about the overrun fuel cut off? i thought this would be useful for engine braking when going down hill. i know some manual transmission cars i've driven and a few work trucks with engine braking have this option built in and its nice for truck stuff lol. but if im wrong about it i should correct it. it has a warning saying to make sure this only comes on when i want it to... maybe i have it setup wrong for what i think i want to use it for?

just made a couple modifications and attached my current tune. i need to figure out ego controls too. keeping them off during actual tuning, but setting them up for actual driving. i would think during real driving i'd want them working to control fueling pretty much all the time, except maybe during WOT. more reading to do lol
Attachments
first tune attempt.msq
(117.91 KiB) Downloaded 32 times
2001 Tacoma with Supercharged GT40p 5.0 and 4R70W from a 2000 Mountaineer, manual transfercase from 97 f150, oil pan and pickup from a Gran Torino, and a ton of other custom stuff.
Blown88GT
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by Blown88GT »

Because you said this: "...the engine idles like crap, falls on its face when you tap the throttle", I think you should disable overrun fuel cut off & see if things are better.
"...maybe i have it setup wrong for what i think i want to use it for?"
Tool Tip says: "Over-run fuel cut is a method to totally cut off fuel during over-run situations such as coasting down a hill in gear. Be sure to set the parameters so that it is only triggered under true over-run conditions and not during regular driving."
I'm not familiar with this setting, so I could be wrong.

You're not going to have much EGO control with a NB. The voltage range is very small compared to a WB, hence the names narrow band & wide band. You only need 1 WB sensor & controller, at around $150. Look for the Innovate LC-2 which is pretty common.
DIY sells them for $189, but you can find it cheaper on eBay ($140).

Notice something else. Change idle control to open-loop, until you get it working.

This is your VE Table. What's going on here?
Attachments
This is your VE Table
This is your VE Table
2017-10-08_200004.jpg (57.48 KiB) Viewed 1515 times
1988 Mustang GT, 59k miles, Orig Owner
ProCharger 600B I/C, 12psi, FRP Hdrs, Flwmstr F2, 3G Alt, Contour Fan & DCC, 3.55's, Prog Sprg, Subfms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5's, Bridgestone RE-71R 245/40R17, Crane HI-6, Kirban FPR, MS2, DIYPNPF60, Spartan 2, C&L76mm blo-thru MAF, 47lb FRP-LU47
blown5.0tacco
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by blown5.0tacco »

Blown88GT wrote:This is your VE Table. What's going on here?
Not sure, I'm trying to figure that out now. As mentioned though, it is how it came preloaded. No changes have been made so far besides setting up rpm range and kpa. That's part of the reason I thought autotune would be helpful. I'm not sure what each box in each table should even be at. Base tunes sometimes make more problems, but perhaps I should find and import some 5.0 Windsor tables?

**edit**
Just found a VE table generator
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/vetable.htm
2001 Tacoma with Supercharged GT40p 5.0 and 4R70W from a 2000 Mountaineer, manual transfercase from 97 f150, oil pan and pickup from a Gran Torino, and a ton of other custom stuff.
billr
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by billr »

Don't use the Megamanual, it is obsolete and not kept current. Use the manuals linked-to at the top of every page on this forum.

Who "pre-loaded" that VE table? You may want to talk to them about its weirdness, there may be a legit reason... but some (many?) of us doubt it.

And, as always...
:msq:
blown5.0tacco
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by blown5.0tacco »

It was just on there. As in, I installed tunerstudio started a new project and thats what it gave me to work with. I was under the impression that the software loaded a generic base to start from and this was it. Also, i know the mega manual is out of date, but are the calculators/generators and too?
2001 Tacoma with Supercharged GT40p 5.0 and 4R70W from a 2000 Mountaineer, manual transfercase from 97 f150, oil pan and pickup from a Gran Torino, and a ton of other custom stuff.
billr
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by billr »

I don't know what TS loads as a "new project", but would suggest loading the "example" project instead and modifying it to your specific install. Since the Megamanual hasn't been kept current there may well be errors that never got corrected. I'm not saying that generator is bad, just not to take a chance. That generator is available from within TS now.
5.0Thunder
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by 5.0Thunder »

That VE table made me laugh out loud at work and spill my water. lol The VE, AFR, and Ignition tables need to be scaled for boost. I'd go up to 200kpa if you're going to run about 12psi. It's usually helpful to have more resolution near idle as well, so the RPM bins may read 600-800-1100-1500-2200-2800-ETC. so that you don't have large fuel and ignition jumps near the idle cells.

You definitely need to reconfigure the fuel table, obviously.

Go ahead and download the latest firmware for this ECU and load it in. Then we can help you check all your basic settings and get you some good ignition and AFR tables (and maybe a VE table) to start with.

Lots of experienced 5.0 Megasquirters here, including ol blown88GT up there. He's helped me a good bit, as well as Ashford, Seijirou, and a few others I'm forgetting. I personally have two boosted 302/306's on megasquirt that I tinker with daily so I'm very familiar with most things that require adjustment on these setups.
1990 Mustang: MS3Pro Gen 1, 306ci, 72mm turbo, 80lb inj, 36-1 + Cam Sync + D585 coils, World heads, TFS1 cam, GT40 intake, auto, Speed Density
1987 Mustang: MS2v3.57, direct coil control, MSD VR Dizzy, SBE, Weiand 174,190cc heads, F303 cam, TBI w/ (4) 160lb inj, GT500 MAF
Raymond_B
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by Raymond_B »

I think you most likely want to scrap your current tune and start over, there's something wrong because Tuner Studio will not just spit that out. I think you should have a tune file where you experiment and read and then one that actually runs your vehicle. Keep them separate!

Also, only make the absolute minimum amount of changes to set the file to your setup. Don't expect to go blasting down the road, take it slow, keep the changes to a minimum. I suggest you read/re-read the manuals linked above, and only those manuals. Here's a screenshot of my non-running vehicle's VE table. All I have done is scale the RPM and KPA, nothing else besides the basics of engine size, injector size, ignition type etc. As you can see it looks nothing like what you've got.

Image
1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
http://www.buildpics.org/
Blown88GT
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by Blown88GT »

He has multiple threads on the same build. Looks like 5 threads including this one.
If he can't keep the threads sorted out, this build is going nowhere.

Has 2 Microsquirts, 1 for engine, 1 for transmission.

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 90#p508390

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 16#p508916

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 11#p511611

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 39#p512839
1988 Mustang GT, 59k miles, Orig Owner
ProCharger 600B I/C, 12psi, FRP Hdrs, Flwmstr F2, 3G Alt, Contour Fan & DCC, 3.55's, Prog Sprg, Subfms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5's, Bridgestone RE-71R 245/40R17, Crane HI-6, Kirban FPR, MS2, DIYPNPF60, Spartan 2, C&L76mm blo-thru MAF, 47lb FRP-LU47
blown5.0tacco
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by blown5.0tacco »

Blown88GT wrote:He has multiple threads on the same build. Looks like 5 threads including this one.
If he can't keep the threads sorted out, this build is going nowhere.
And yeah, I don't know a lot about this because I'm new but I could still tell it was jacked. I'll keep the higher resolution thing in mind closer to idle too.

sorry, i thought it would be best to post in the most appropriate subforum for each individual topic. if i can just post here from now on i will as long as nobody cares?

here is my most recent tune. i used different ve, afr, and ign maps as a base since the ones i had didnt really cut it. i took your advice and stopped the fuel cutoff for now untill i can really figure it out. idles a ton better, throttle response is way better too. this seems like its coming along well now thanks almost entirely to you guys so i wanted to say thank you again. i just got the 4wd shifter mounted, i'll attach the driveshaft soon, and install a different shifter (the tacoma shifter did work until the f150 4wd shifter got in its way lol...) think ill try a foxbody mustang or something.

anyway, here is the log file and my most recent tune. after i get home and cut some of the crap out ill post the video i have of it running too.
log file (sorry it was to big)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4OWRh ... sp=sharing
Short video from today
https://youtu.be/yZWWdCte4aE
Attachments
most recent 50swapTacoma.msq
(118.02 KiB) Downloaded 36 times
2001 Tacoma with Supercharged GT40p 5.0 and 4R70W from a 2000 Mountaineer, manual transfercase from 97 f150, oil pan and pickup from a Gran Torino, and a ton of other custom stuff.
5.0Thunder
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by 5.0Thunder »

From the video it looks like your cold start RPM is rather low and idles up as it warms, which is logical, but means your IAC valve isn't being used correctly. During cold start you want to have the IAC valve open up a little to idle the engine up then gradually close as the engine warms to lower RPM, as the OEM's do if you've noticed.

Also, take one of those gauges in TS and turn it into an AFR gauge so you can monitor AFR's at startup and idle. For these systems with batch fired injection, it is most common to target low/mid 12's at cold start and creep up to about 13.5 AFR when warm. You'll use afterstart and warmup enrichment to dial this in but it's good to see that AFR gauge on the cluster. If should perfectly match your actual wideband gauge so ensure it's calibrated properly.

I'd love to take a look at your tune and scope some things out. If you want to zip the project folder and post it up I can take a look through it. I like using the project folder so that I don't have to create projects and dig through firmware when opening peoples tunes.
1990 Mustang: MS3Pro Gen 1, 306ci, 72mm turbo, 80lb inj, 36-1 + Cam Sync + D585 coils, World heads, TFS1 cam, GT40 intake, auto, Speed Density
1987 Mustang: MS2v3.57, direct coil control, MSD VR Dizzy, SBE, Weiand 174,190cc heads, F303 cam, TBI w/ (4) 160lb inj, GT500 MAF
blown5.0tacco
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by blown5.0tacco »

Yes! I tested my IAC valve and it seemed to work, although recently before it was running I had the key on engine off and the IAC got pretty hot. I'd like to replace it and figure out my startup/idle settings and see what frequency I should run the IAC on startup.

I will zip everything in my folder and put it on that Google drive for you as soon as I get to my laptop.
2001 Tacoma with Supercharged GT40p 5.0 and 4R70W from a 2000 Mountaineer, manual transfercase from 97 f150, oil pan and pickup from a Gran Torino, and a ton of other custom stuff.
R100RT
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by R100RT »

Obscure VE.jpg
Obscure VE.jpg (57.48 KiB) Viewed 1378 times
Somewhere in the "Rockies" :lol:
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ol boy
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by ol boy »

Why are you only using the 12x12 tables for fuel?

I'm running a turboed 306 ford. I can make the changes to VE, spark and AFR and make you a tune. In case I missed it, what injector flow rate are you running? TS shows 240ish c/min. That won't work under boost very well. I maxed out 36 lb/hr at 12psi and 5000 rpm.


**edit** his first VE table looks like that because he is using 12x12 instead of 16x16, so the array grabbing the values is shifted or omitted parts of the 16x16 to make the 12x12. The micro holds enough memory for the 16x16(256 bytes) but only grabs in order the first 12x12(144 bytes).. ie rocky mountains.
306 SBFord, Torquer II EFI intake, 60 lbs injectors, 8 LS2 coils, VS Racing 7668 turbo, 4R70W, MS3x fw1.4 w/built in trans controller.
ol boy
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Re: supercharged ford 5.0 windsor

Post by ol boy »

I poked it for you. let me know how it runs. Looks like your engine idles around the same kpa as mine. we have the same VE values, figuring your close to begin with. Just move your req fuel value up or down until its smooth idle.
50swap_10.11.2017.msq
give it a try, 16x16 fuel table with better scaling of load and rpm
(119.38 KiB) Downloaded 65 times
noticed something else, spark output is set to wasted spark? what coil packs are you using?
306 SBFord, Torquer II EFI intake, 60 lbs injectors, 8 LS2 coils, VS Racing 7668 turbo, 4R70W, MS3x fw1.4 w/built in trans controller.
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