Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

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maych87
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Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by maych87 »

I installed a ms3 with ms3x on my Porsche 911 964 c4. I had the vehicle dyno tuned at the shop with a four wheel mustang dyno. The shop was not familiar with Porsches, even though on the phone they told me they were. They had a very difficult time getting my car onto the Dyno and straped down.

The tune cost me $1400 which I thought was Way too expensive when they didn't even seem to know what they were doing. Regardless the end result, power and throttle response seemed to be what I was expecting.
The idle tuning was garbage.

I was looking around on the Internet and came across the SW chips performance engineering website. I saw that they had the timing map at wide open throttle of a euro cup 964 compared to the base map. I wanted to compare mine to it that the tuner shop did. Upon reviewing it, my timing is way less advanced in the lower RPMs then even the stock 964 timing curve.

It gets me wondering if the Dyno shop that did mine did a bad job. If I have less advanced in the lower RPM's than even a stock 964 I am assuming that they did not optimize the power in that RPM range. I am concerned that they did not have enough airflow to the engine and my air intake temperature could have been we're very high causing premature detonation.

If someone could take a look at the pictures below the first is the timing map that the Dyno shop came up with. The second is the timing curve from SW chips for the stock 964 and the euro cup.

I would like some advice to know if I should go back to the Dyno shop and see if I can get them to redo it considering I paid $1400. Or if the timing map they did seems good.

Image

Image


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tryingbe
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Re: Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by tryingbe »

maych87 wrote:I installed a ms3 with ms3x on my Porsche 911 964 c4.
Is the engine turbocharged or supercharged? Because the map has over 100 kPa, you only need that if the engine is boosted.
maych87 wrote: I had the vehicle dyno tuned at the shop with a four wheel mustang dyno.. Regardless the end result,
Post the DYNO! Is it less or more than factory?
Did you install a knock module to monitor knock?
What is your MSQ?
:msq:
Did you datalog?
If so, post the log.

maych87 wrote: The idle tuning was garbage.
Explain in details. Garbage means nothing.
Does the car have an idle controller?
What type of idle controller?
Bad cold idle?
Bad warm idle?
A/F ratio?
Idle at 2000 RPM?
RPM not steady?
Have you try to follow these people advises?
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 48#p504648
......????



This is what I use to make my initial spark timing table.
http://www.useasydocs.com/theory/spktable.htm
1985 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo MicroSquirted 367whp http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=67324
Dennis930
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Re: Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by Dennis930 »

maych87,

It would be great if you knew the total advance before converting to MS. The thing to remember is that a twin plug 911 ignition advance is going to be 6*- 8* less than a single plug engine. That being said, there may be room to increase the advance a little in the mid to upper ranges. I have seen maps of other 911's with more advance, but it also depends on compression ratio. Also, you can get rid of the 200, 300 and 400kpa rows and add in a 20, 25 and 85kpa rows and populate with some good assumption values. Save the current tune before you make any changes so you can go back if needed. The 20 and 25kps rows will only see use during overrun. You could add a couple of degrees in the mid to upper ranges and see if it feels any different. Do you have a knock sensor installed? As tryingbe said, are the dyno numbers close to the factory rating when converted to flywheel HP? I would imagine there would be more driveline loss with a four wheel drive setup.
Porsche 930 3.0 Slantnose
MS3/MS3X Sequential Injection & Spark, MS Knock, Dual plug, LS2 coils, Siemens 55 lb/hr HiZ injectors, ALM-ADV Wide Band,
Carrera Intake, Extrude honed, Ford 70mm Throttlebody, GTX3071R Turbo
maych87
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Re: Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by maych87 »

Thanks for all the great advice. Tryingbe the car is naturally aspirated. I’m still not sure myself why they set a map with over 100kpa. I have adjusted the ve and afr table to a max off 100kpa already. I am now at the point where I am trying to make sense of what they did on the ignition table to see if they did a proper job. I had the tune done in spring, I wanted my car perfect for summer so I was willing to pay them to do it instead of taking the time to learn it myself. I wired up the ms over winter and the shop told me to bring it down once I had fired the car up and got it to run. They said they would set everything else up and to tow the car to the shop to be on the safe side, which i did. The shop set up my VE Table and my ignition table. They tried to set up my closed loop idle but the car was stalling every time it would go down a hill and coming to a stop. That problem has been resolved by myself. The things they did not set up that they were supposed to include: my ego, knock settings and my afr table. They had my incorporated afr, ego and knock all turned on but with incorrect settings. I have spent until now learning how the system operates in order to set everything up properly. I am still learning and now tyring to figure out the timing to verify what they did at the dyno shop is correct. So far I have fixed my idle issue (not perfect but pretty good), done a dead time test on my injectors to set that up properly, set up my knock sensor's (have not set gain yet), set up ego control properly and now i am running VE analyze live as much as possible. I still probably have lots to learn.

The dyno shop originally told me my car did 270 hp to the wheels. They were supposed to email me my dyno chart but never did. I eventually got it a few months later and it had a peak of 250hp. I asked them what was going on and they claimed they never told me the 270 number and that they have a run f 270 but the graph was not a smooth pull so they didn’t think it was accurate. Attached below is the dyno run they sent me. As for modifications to my engine. I have full exhaust, custom intake and bigger injectors than stock that’s it.

I will also send my msq of what the dyno shop originally did and my current tune of the adjustments I have made. If someone could tell me if they have any suggestions to my current tune that would be great. To do with the ignition table it is my understanding that you can only set it properly on a dyno. Since I paid $1400 for them to do it, If it looks incorrect i would go back to them. Opinions if i should go back to them would be great. I don’t want to complain if there is nothing to complain about.
Attachments
Dyno Graph
Dyno Graph
myles dyno.JPG (125.65 KiB) Viewed 2395 times
rg tune.msq
Original Dyno Shop Tune
(286.46 KiB) Downloaded 57 times
2017-10-14_11.30.56.msq
Current Tune
(286.65 KiB) Downloaded 96 times
prof315
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Re: Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by prof315 »

I WOULD NOT go back to the same dyno shop. They clearly don't understand MS
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billr
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Re: Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by billr »

I wonder if they even understand engines? I wouldn't expect this engine to poop-out before 6000 rpm.
maych87
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Re: Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by maych87 »

Considering I spent $1400 with them should I go back and ask them if they can redo it for free? Or at least my ignition table now that I have most of the other settings sorted out. They charged me 6.5 hrs for what they say on the invoice is megasquirt setup, calibration, idle set up and test drive, then they charged me another 4 hours for dyno tuning. The car was running when they got it. Everything was already calibrated. Not sure why they say they did that.


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tryingbe
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Re: Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by tryingbe »

Let it go, $1400 spent in Springs, consider that money bought you a big lesson. Even if the shop offer to do it for free, I would not go back given how poorly they did it the first time.

Is your knock sensor setup? If not, get it up first. I wouldn't tune ignition until the knock sensor is setup.

I used this to generate my spark table.
http://www.useasydocs.com/theory/spktable.htm
1985 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo MicroSquirted 367whp http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=67324
maych87
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Re: Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by maych87 »

I have the knock module set up on my mx3x expansion card. I have all the settings done in tuner studio. I have not set the gain yet or adjusted the threshold. Currently at 5000 rpm my knock on almost all the cylinders goes above the current set threshold of 50%. I'm not sure how to differentiate an actual engine knock vs it picking up engine noise? My exhaust is very loud and the engine is in the back so it's very hard to tell. Should I make an ignition map with 5 degrees less advance across the board and do a single gear pull to redline to see what my knock sensors are reading. Then set my threshold just below that?

As for setting the gain what rpm should I adjust it at to get the same amount of knock level. Should I adjust it to be the same as the cylinder creating the most or least knock at whatever given rpm you guys suggest.

Also should I adjust the threshold or gain first?

Attached is a datalog of the knock going above 50 percent just above 5000 rpm.


Suggestion would be great fully appreciated.




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Attachments
2017-10-15_11.18.31.msl
knock module activates just above 5000rpm
(680.99 KiB) Downloaded 41 times
2017-10-16_15.04.40.msq
current tune
(286.68 KiB) Downloaded 52 times
tryingbe
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Re: Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by tryingbe »

maych87 wrote:I have the knock module set up on my mx3x expansion card. I have all the settings done in tuner studio. I have not set the gain yet or adjusted the threshold. Currently at 5000 rpm my knock on almost all the cylinders goes above the current set threshold of 50%. I'm not sure how to differentiate an actual engine knock vs it picking up engine noise?
Can you get data on factory Porsche knock detection method?

Chrysler doesn't even consider it is knock at 6000rpm until the knock voltage goes above 3.7v (74% out of 5v) on my 2.2L turbo engine, so I just copied data for my engine. When I revved in idle, my knock goes to 33.9%. I am using a knock module call lilknockmeter with my Microsquirt. Lilknockmeter has LED output, headphone output, 0-5 on/off output, as well as 0-5 analogue output.
Attachments
knock.png
knock.png (103.48 KiB) Viewed 2319 times
msknock.png
msknock.png (220.09 KiB) Viewed 2319 times
knock.msl
(597.83 KiB) Downloaded 36 times
1985 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo MicroSquirted 367whp http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=67324
maych87
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Re: Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by maych87 »

Porsches Data for the early models is very limited. I've done a lot of searching and not been able to come up with anything. This morning I retarded my timing 5° across my whole ignition map and did a second gear pull from 1000 RPM to Red line. I set my threshold all 100%. I data logged to see which each knock sensor was reading. As my ignition map was very conservative I am assuming there was no real engine knock and it was all just engine noise. I looked at where the highest Level of knock was. At that rpm I adjusted the gain to equalize all the knock sensors to the least amount of knock at that rpm.

I'll go out later today and do another second gear pull with my gains adjusted and the 5 degree retarded ignition map. I will data log and see where the knocks end up. I will adjust the threshold curve at Each rpm just above the highest knock that they are creating with the conservative ignition map.

Does anyone have any input if that will be an appropriate way to set up the knock sensors without any real hard data from Porsche. Thanks


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billr
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Re: Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by billr »

When you get all done fussing with the knock sense, it may still not achieve what you want. Setting timing to "just before knock" isn't always where best power is made. If you want the "optimal" timing, it has to go on a dyno, and probably an "absorbing" (steady-state) dyno.
maych87
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Re: Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by maych87 »

Yes I know that. You did a very good job explaining that in a previous post Optimal ignition advance

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_ ... are_type=t.

I'm just trying to set up the knock sensors properly. Based on the advice from everyone I will find a new Dyno shop once I have everything set up properly


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Dennis930
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Re: Porsche 911 optimal timing map. Help!

Post by Dennis930 »

maych87,

I have a single Bosch sensor mounted against the case secured by the inboard most stud for the throttle linkage console at the front of the engine. What I did was datalog and adjust the gains for each cylinder to get approximate equal readings. Then I datalogged knock on several occasions but I never saw a reading over 50%. I did see a couple of spikes over 50% when adjusting boost control(17psi) where overboost cut in and dropped spark and fuel. But I am running 11.5 AFR and about 17* of advance for a low compression turbo engine at the higher RPM's. I have read that because of twin plug setup, knock is much less likely because you are not running as much advance as a single plug. As long as your AFR's are rich enough in the high load areas I do not think you will have a problem. These engine are very noisy because there is no water jacket to dampen noise. You may have to turn down your gains or just raise the threshold above 50%. I am actually running more advance below 100kpa than you are, but again I am only 7:1 compression ratio. And I have not dyno'ed my car, so I may be too advanced, leaving power on the table. But it sure does not feel like it compared to the old CIS injection/distributor setup.
Porsche 930 3.0 Slantnose
MS3/MS3X Sequential Injection & Spark, MS Knock, Dual plug, LS2 coils, Siemens 55 lb/hr HiZ injectors, ALM-ADV Wide Band,
Carrera Intake, Extrude honed, Ford 70mm Throttlebody, GTX3071R Turbo
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