MS2, VE2 Issues

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njh91
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:04 am
Location: Coventry, UK

MS2, VE2 Issues

Post by njh91 »

Hi all,

New here so apologies if this is the wrong section for this topic.

Have a couple of questions regarding my car using MS2.

Bit of basic info on setup:

VW Polo, 1.6 8v engine
Jenvey ITBs
Custom inlet plenum
Scroll type supercharger
Cable operated boost relief valve (more throttle = valve closed more, diverting more air into engine, lift off, boost relieved through external outlet)

Using MS2
Bosch 044 Fuel Pump
Weber Alpha 3.0 bar FPR (MAP reference connected to FPR)
250cc Injectors
Wasted spark igntion
36-1 Trigger wheel
Coolant temp sensor
Inlet air temp sensor (on inlet to plenum where boost pipe enters)
TPS
Using on board MAP sensor, with all 4 branches of inlet manifold linked to a small air reservoir, then to ECU/FPR)

Basically, the car was NA, running the ITBs, using TPS as primary load, with no issues for a few years of use.

Have now lowered compression ratio, added the plenum and supercharger.

Basically I am now at the point of tuning it, which as far as tuning the actual VE values/ign values is no issue.

The method of control I am using is:

Primary Fuel Load - TPS
Primary IGN Load - TPS
Secondary Fuel Load - MAP
Secondary IGN Load - MAP

Multiply MAP is off
VE2 is Additive

Basically due to a lairy(ish) cam, and the ITBs, the MAP signal at idle is around 65-70KPa, and quite unsteady, therefore TPS needs to be used for the primary tables.

I have driven the car with the boost relief valve fully open, so engine has the drag of the charger, but running 0 boost as its all vented off, base VE/Ign tables are ok, so I am now onto tuning VE2 & IGN2.

I will not be running more than 10psi of boost (~70KPa) so have scaled the secondary VE/Ign tables from 95-170KPa.

Basically the issue I am having is, although the tables are scaled correctly for what I want, upon driving the car, it is not running up the load range of VE2 or Ign2, it follows RPM, however only goes up to the first/second row (95 & 102KPa) even when the MAP is reading ~147KPa

I am unsure why it is not following the table as it should, as obviously it is not adding fuel/removing timing as it should, as it is not following the table.

I may have missed a basic setting, which could be very simple. I mapped my car years ago when it was NA, with no issues, but I am now having to re-familiarise myself with TunerStudio so it could be an easy mistake I am making.

VE1's load axis is % load, which will be TPS
VE2's load axis is % load, which as secondary load is MAP, I assumed it would be a pure MAP value, although it may still be 0-100%, in which case I have no idea how to scale is, as I don't know what its limits are, unless this is what you set in the basic settings of the ranges?

I was also hoping to have a secondary AFR table, so I can use that in MegaLogViewer for VE analyze for VE2 only, but the only way I can seem to have AFR Table 2, is to enable Dual Table in basic settings, which is incorrect for what I want (as far as I am aware).

Any help appreciated, apologies if this is a lot to swallow, its slightly confusing to explain!

Cheers,

Nick
Matt Cramer
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 17499
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: MS2, VE2 Issues

Post by Matt Cramer »

:msq:
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
njh91
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:04 am
Location: Coventry, UK

Re: MS2, VE2 Issues

Post by njh91 »

Matt Cramer wrote::msq:
Unfortunately I am away currently so not near my laptop to be able to upload a log.

Thought it may be a simple issue to resolve without a log given the detail I have described.

Basically I either need to get VE2 'Fuel Load 2 %' into a pure MAP value, or if it is a percentage of MAP, establish the limits.

For example, if I set the limit to 170KPa, its range of 0-100% would be 0 - 170KPa, meaning I could scale it to suit,

For example:

0.59% = 1KPa

So to scale 95-170KPa I would need between:

55.9% - 100% on VE2.

Just unsure whether the load % is looking at a %age of MAP limits, or is working it out elsewhere.

Thanks
Matt Cramer
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 17499
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: MS2, VE2 Issues

Post by Matt Cramer »

On a speed density tune, the current firmware will specifically identify the load as the actual MAP sensor reading.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
njh91
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:04 am
Location: Coventry, UK

Re: MS2, VE2 Issues

Post by njh91 »

Yes I'd have thought that would be the case, need to establish what firmware I'm currently on.

It seems to almost follow is as TPS or still as a total MAP load %age, as logs show up to 150KPa but still only reads between 95-100 on the speed density table.
njh91
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:04 am
Location: Coventry, UK

Re: MS2, VE2 Issues

Post by njh91 »

Right, back with a laptop now.

Running:

Tuner Studio - v3.0.28
Firmware - MS2/Extra Release 3.3.1

Having had more time to study the log file, VE2 & IGN2 are following TPS (yes it needs re calibrating as its seeing around 104%) so my issue is, even though secondary load for both fuel and ignition are set to speed density, why are they following Alpha-N (or TPS if you like).

Attached is the tune file (don't pay too much attention to actual values for VE/IGN/AFR targets) its purely for testing the secondary tables function.

Have also (hopefully) attached a data log with a few quick accel pulls, showing positive boost pressure and TPS, you can also see VE1/2 are line on line, and the following on VE2/IGN2 is purely the TPS value for load, basically its not looking at MAP for the secondary tables.

Hope someone can make sense of it, I'm hoping I have missed a simple setting somewhere, apologies for the delay of attaching files.

Thanks,

Nick
Attachments
Trial with VE2 - IGN2 Secondary Loads.msq
MSQ, trial setup with secondary loads set to Speed Density
(116.81 KiB) Downloaded 34 times
2017-10-15_14.28.57.msl
Log of positive boost and VE2/IGN2 not looking at MAP for load
(1.45 MiB) Downloaded 26 times
Matt Cramer
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 17499
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: MS2, VE2 Issues

Post by Matt Cramer »

Secondary Load, Secondary Ignition Load, and SPK: Spark Table 2 are all tracking with MAP as expected. VE1 and VE2 appear to be showing the cumulative VE for fuel outputs 1 and 2 rather than VE tables 1 and 2; it appears this is just a case of one piece of data not working quite as the name suggests it would.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
njh91
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:04 am
Location: Coventry, UK

Re: MS2, VE2 Issues

Post by njh91 »

Thanks.

Upon looking through looks earlier it did seem the VE values are cumulative, therefore it seems it may actually be MegaLogViewer which is not displaying correctly hence my confusion (D'oh).

Which then leads me on to why, as I am going to need to be able to look at logs to tune VE2/IGN2.

Not sure if I need to make another thread in the MLV section...

Nick
njh91
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:04 am
Location: Coventry, UK

Re: MS2, VE2 Issues

Post by njh91 »

Update for anyone who's interested:

Have managed to drive the car again now and get some more logs, even had success using TuneAnalyzeLive in tuner studio.

Just got to work out how to get it to follow VE2/IGN2 on MLV so I can actually see what's going on without manually cross referencing to the tables as that takes long!

Thanks for your help.

Nick
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