Hot Start, Starts then Dies

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Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby enigmaticdream » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:03 am

Hi All
I'm new here and have been working on revamping the idle on my car. The previous owner had put MS3 Pro on the car and tuned it. Several months after owning it I found a boost leak/intake leak. Having now fixed it the idle is not like it was before. I've done a pretty good job of resolving cold start and using TunerStudio's auto tune of WUE to further improve cold start. The car fires up relatively quick and idles dead straight as I would expect. However, when the car has moved out of WUE and is warmed up I'm having issues with restarting the car and keeping it idling. I can keep it running if I give it some gas after it fires up, but if I just fire it up it up without giving it throttle it will die. I tried tweaking the ASE a bit, but I'm not sure if my numbers are too low or too high or what is going on to be honest. I took a log of me attempting to restart the car back to back when hot. Any suggestions?

Thanks
Attachments
2017-10-27_17.05.56_hot_idle_die.msl
(156.21 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
1986_Porsche_911_Supercharged_2017-10-27_17.05.34.msq
(249.45 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
Last edited by enigmaticdream on Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby billr » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:27 am

:msq:
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby enigmaticdream » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:47 pm

billr wrote::msq:


Fixed, I attached it to the original post. Sorry about.
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby billr » Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:26 pm

Your VE values are all abnormally low. Have you flowed the injectors to be sure the rate and dead-time are correct? You need to be sure the "req_fuel" is correct to keep from wandering in the weeds trying to tune this. ASE and WUE both are kind of low and MAT correction is "rich", but I would focus on the req_fuel/VE first.
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby enigmaticdream » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:53 pm

billr wrote:Your VE values are all abnormally low. Have you flowed the injectors to be sure the rate and dead-time are correct? You need to be sure the "req_fuel" is correct to keep from wandering in the weeds trying to tune this. ASE and WUE both are kind of low and MAT correction is "rich", but I would focus on the req_fuel/VE first.


The injectors are Siemens Deka 60lb/h, FI114961 or 107-961 which are bigger injectors than stock. Looking at the dead time for these injectors they're around .36 @ 13.2V. Do you want a cold start log as well?
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby Blown88GT » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:43 pm

enigmaticdream wrote:...The injectors are Siemens Deka 60lb/h, FI114961 or 107-961 which are bigger injectors than stock. Looking at the dead time for these injectors they're around .36 @ 13.2V...

How did you arrive at this? What is the BCV you used.
Your tune shows a DT = 1.0

MS3 allows for much finer tuning of these parameters. Use this; enter parameters for the LU60.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =302838282

Found the Calibration Summary for you.
http://siemensdeka.com/specsheets/FI114961cs.jpg

These are the same injectors as the Ford M-9593-LU60.
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-9593-LU60
Calibration Summary is the same; here is pdf.
https://performanceparts.ford.com/parts ... 3-lu60.pdf
Last edited by Blown88GT on Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby billr » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:52 pm

Yes, I can see you think these injectors flow 60#, I'm just wondering if they actually do so with your fuel system. The VE table is crying "foul", unless this engine breathes quite poorly.
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby Blown88GT » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:00 pm

We're you trying to use a MAF & then disabled it? I see values inputted to the flow curve.
Your VE table top boost level (240kPa) does not match the AFR table or the Ignition Table (200kPa).
Does not look like you used the VE Table Generator or the Ignition Table Generator.
Correction: AFR Table Generator. Ignition Table has no generator.
Last edited by Blown88GT on Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
1988 Mustang GT, 57k miles, Orig. Owner
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby enigmaticdream » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:56 am

Blown88GT wrote:
enigmaticdream wrote:...The injectors are Siemens Deka 60lb/h, FI114961 or 107-961 which are bigger injectors than stock. Looking at the dead time for these injectors they're around .36 @ 13.2V...

How did you arrive at this? What is the BCV you used.
Your tune shows a DT = 1.0

MS3 allows for much finer tuning of these parameters. Use this; enter parameters for the LU60.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =302838282

Found the Calibration Summary for you.
http://siemensdeka.com/specsheets/FI114961cs.jpg

These are the same injectors as the Ford M-9593-LU60.
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-9593-LU60
Calibration Summary is the same; here is pdf.
https://performanceparts.ford.com/parts ... 3-lu60.pdf
Thanks, I'll plug in the numbers then confirm with you guys that I'm updating the right areas.

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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby enigmaticdream » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:58 am

Blown88GT wrote:We're you trying to use a MAF & then disabled it? I see values inputted to the flow curve.
Your VE table top boost level (240kPa) does not match the AFR table or the Ignition Table (200kPa).
Does not look like you used the VE Table Generator or the Ignition Table Generator.
Anything odd has been done by the previous owner. I've only touched WUE, ASE, and VE values around idle.

Should I rescale the VE and AFR tables to be at the same scale?

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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby Blown88GT » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:58 am

enigmaticdream wrote:... I'll plug in the numbers then confirm with you guys that I'm updating the right areas...

You'll notice that DT = 1.0 is the default. The LU60's happen to be far from the default, closer to 0.5.
When you make this drastic a change, you'll have to redo #2, below.

enigmaticdream wrote:...
1. Anything odd has been done by the previous owner.
2. I've only touched WUE, ASE, and VE values around idle.
3. Should I rescale the VE and AFR tables to be at the same scale?...


1. Probably why he sold the car.
2. Those are the most difficult, always the ones to do first.
3. I would, however, not an issue for #2.

BTW, is the MAF still installed? It can be used in conjunction with the MAP. If that's the right calibration curve the PO entered.
It makes it easier to tune the VE Table, since all values start at 100 & then trim the idle values by percentages, 1.e. 110 = adding 10%. MAP is used for Ignition.
Not many do it this way, but I do.
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby enigmaticdream » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:24 am

Blown88GT wrote:
enigmaticdream wrote:... I'll plug in the numbers then confirm with you guys that I'm updating the right areas...

You'll notice that DT = 1.0 is the default. The LU60's happen to be far from the default, closer to 0.5.
When you make this drastic a change, you'll have to redo #2, below.

enigmaticdream wrote:...
1. Anything odd has been done by the previous owner.
2. I've only touched WUE, ASE, and VE values around idle.
3. Should I rescale the VE and AFR tables to be at the same scale?...


1. Probably why he sold the car.
2. Those are the most difficult, always the ones to do first.
3. I would, however, not an issue for #2.

BTW, is the MAF still installed? It can be used in conjunction with the MAP. If that's the right calibration curve the PO entered.
It makes it easier to tune the VE Table, since all values start at 100 & then trim the idle values by percentages, 1.e. 110 = adding 10%. MAP is used for Ignition.
Not many do it this way, but I do.
There's no MAF, just IAT.

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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby enigmaticdream » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:54 pm

So I updated the deadtime and define the "Dead Time Voltage Curve" for my tune based on the spreadsheet that BlownGT88 provided. I had to tweak the VE table by providing more fuel in the idle area.

The first log involves some cold start issues which looked to be lack of fuel related so I bumped up the VE table until it would start. It would then run quite rich, then go lean and die out. It looks to be related to ASE or ASE Taper, I'm not sure which, but I gave it a bit more fuel so I could get pass the ASE and work on WUE. After that I'm running only WUE and letting auto tune WUE run to adjust the values.

The second log involves me continuing to be in WUE then eventually get out of WUE when the motor finally warms up. After it is out of WUE I let it auto tune the VE table a bit at idle then slowly give it some more throttle to move it around. Toward the end you can see where the idle oscillates after loading the engine up a bit and releasing the throttle. It eventually does it a second time before stalling out.

Few questions.
-What should I be tweaking to fix this richness to lean condition for the ASE/ASE Taper? Which one should I tweak to get my AFRs to be a little closer to normal? UPDATE: I believe I really just need to tweak ASE and not the ASE Taper. I'll worry about this more after getting idle sorted.
-Any suggestions with how to stop the idle from oscillating and bogging down and dying?

Thanks
Attachments
1986_Porsche_911_Supercharged_2017-11-01_16.42.42.msq
Adjusted Deadtime
(249.85 KiB) Downloaded 6 times
2017-11-01_16.22.13_deadtime_log.zip
Cold Start Logging
(292.46 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
2017-11-01_16.22.13_deadtime2_log.zip
Cold to Out of WUE Log
(522.48 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby Blown88GT » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:54 pm

The first thing I see is turn off Closed-Loop idle control until you get further along.

Read the "tool tips" for ASE & others.
Immediately after the engine has started it is normal to need additional fuel. This curve specifies how much as a percentage adder. (5-50%)
I like the "curves" linear, not stepped, so there are no drastic changes during temperature rise.
During warmup, AFR is whatever your engine likes best. I ignore it until engine is at normal operating temperature.
Normal operating temperature for your air cooled engine appears to be over 216degF, according to ASE & ASE Taper.

Compare your WUE Coolant Range with ASE Range; WUE only goes to 110. They all should have the same range (Y-axis). Correction: X-Axis
Attachments
Sample ASE.jpg
Sample ASE
Sample ASE.jpg (68.73 KiB) Viewed 341 times
Last edited by Blown88GT on Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby enigmaticdream » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:57 pm

Blown88GT wrote:The first thing I see is turn off Closed-Loop idle control until you get further along.

Read the "tool tips" for ASE & others.
Immediately after the engine has started it is normal to need additional fuel. This curve specifies how much as a percentage adder. (5-50%)
I like the "curves" linear, not stepped, so there are no drastic changes during temperature rise.
During warmup, AFR is whatever your engine likes best. I ignore it until engine is at normal operating temperature.
Normal operating temperature for your air cooled engine appears to be over 216degF, according to ASE & ASE Taper.

Compare your WUE Coolant Range with ASE Range; WUE only goes to 110. They all should have the same range (Y-axis).


Thanks for the feedback. I've disabled Closed-Loop Idle for now. I've also adjusted both WUE and ASE to be from 0F to 180 in equal intervals then equal intervals on the X axis as well. I'll load the new tune up tomorrow and log what happens and report back.

Your statement above about normal operating temperature got me thinking about how the Fuel VE, WUE, and ASE work together. So is the idea that we run Fuel VE, WUE and ASE until we're at normal operating temperature then swap over to only Fuel VE? If so, I'm assuming that I'll always want to tune idle at normal operating temperature? Is this how most OEM ECUs work as well?

Thanks again
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby billr » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:53 pm

Yes, ASE is out of the equation very soon after engine start; usually just a few seconds, but it depends on the "ASE taper" settings.

WUE becomes "fixed" at the last value when CLT reaches the last (bottom) line in the WUE table. Usually that last value is 100% so WUE is also out of the equation from then on.
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby enigmaticdream » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:15 pm

billr wrote:Yes, ASE is out of the equation very soon after engine start; usually just a few seconds, but it depends on the "ASE taper" settings.

WUE becomes "fixed" at the last value when CLT reaches the last (bottom) line in the WUE table. Usually that last value is 100% so WUE is also out of the equation from then on.


Thanks for the info.

Okay, so I loaded up the new tune with open idle instead of closed idle and new ASE and WUE tables. The car fired up just fine and I let it idle. I started tweaking ASE and WUE values to get AFRs to be less rich (in the 10s and 11s) early on during warm up. I was shooting for 13s but I think I only got to the 12s. Warm up took a LONG time due to essentially using oil temp as the CLT reference. I also made adjustment to the idle warmup duty/steps along the way as it slowly warmed up to bring idle down.

Eventually I hit 180F CLT and I'm out of WUE so I start auto tuning the idle a bit and giving it some throttle input. After giving it some throttle it would stabilize really nicely back to idle. There's a bit of idle hunting (100-150rpm I think?) but I'm not sure if that would be considered normal or not. The temperature continued to climb up to 190F while post WUE.

Lastly, I decided to turn the car off and back on to see how well it restarted when hot. It took a little longer to fire up during cold start so I tweaked the idle crank duty but then reverted back to the original value because it seemed to make it harder to start. By this point CLT was at almost 200F.

Questions
-For Idle Warmup Duty/Steps values. Would the hottest value ever be set to 0% Idle PWM Duty? I imagine not since you would want some vacuum leak to come by to keep idle, but I thought I'd ask.
-While making adjustments to the Idle Warmup Duty/Step values I ultimately settled on using the same value for the last 3 values because it was giving me the idle I was trying to aim for. Does this make sense? Should I Interpolate from a higher value so it is a more linear reduction in idle duty?
-How big of an effect does 20F have after warmup for the CLT? My current WUE ends at 180F and while trying to do hot restart after it fired back up it seemed to be lean. Is this normal? Do I need to increase ASE taper/ASE to compensate for this? There is also more oscillation when it is around 200F vs 180F.
Attachments
1986_Porsche_911_Supercharged_2017-11-02_16.52.36.msq
lastest tune
(249.88 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
2017-11-02_16.13.55_logs_1_2.zip
Initial start up with tweaks to ASE/WUE/Idle Warmup Duty
(352.42 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
2017-11-02_16.16.45_logs_3.zip
Continued warmup with tweaking of WUE and Idle Warmup Duty Part 1
(371.42 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby enigmaticdream » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:18 pm

Second half the logs and logs containing post WUE idling and hot start w/idle

Thanks
Attachments
2017-11-02_16.28.29_logs_4_5.zip
Continued warmup with tweaking of WUE and Idle Warmup Duty Part 2
(531.03 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
2017-11-02_16.33.04_logs_7.zip
Post warmup with auto tune of idle and throttle input.
(224.69 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
2017-11-02_16.45.25_logs_8_9.zip
hot idle and hot start 190F and 200F CLT
(419.27 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby Blown88GT » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:42 pm

enigmaticdream wrote:...
Questions
1-For Idle Warmup Duty/Steps values. Would the hottest value ever be set to 0% Idle PWM Duty? I imagine not since you would want some vacuum leak to come by to keep idle, but I thought I'd ask.
2-While making adjustments to the Idle Warmup Duty/Step values I ultimately settled on using the same value for the last 3 values because it was giving me the idle I was trying to aim for. Does this make sense? Should I Interpolate from a higher value so it is a more linear reduction in idle duty?
3-How big of an effect does 20F have after warmup for the CLT? My current WUE ends at 180F and while trying to do hot restart after it fired back up it seemed to be lean. Is this normal? Do I need to increase ASE taper/ASE to compensate for this? There is also more oscillation when it is around 200F vs 180F.

1. Depends on the idle valve. Even at 0, it could still be open some. When you go to closed-loop, this setting is not used.
2. Whatever works best.
3. If you get above 180, it uses the last value (180). It may go lean for a minute after hot start, mine does, just don't want it to stall. Oscillations can be difficult to zero in on. Timing can have a big effect. You might want to rescale X-axis, the 400 column will never be used & far too much timing for boost (above 100 kPa). Timing table is difficult because there is no generator. You can search around the internet to find a base map close to yours, even if it only verifies what you have now. B&G has one, but I found it to be far off.
Closed-loop can cure it or make it worse until you get it dialed in. MS3 has settings that MS2 doesn't. Give it a try; easy to change from closed to open.
Order of tuning, looks like you've completed A & B.
A. Cold Start settings
B. Cold running settings (ASE, WUE)
C. Warm start settings
D. Warm running settings

Not saying any of these are good, but you can look at & study them.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche- ... 3-2ss.html

Found a thread on our forum & it's recent (attachments are deleted after 1 year):
viewtopic.php?f=134&t=67515
1988 Mustang GT, 57k miles, Orig. Owner
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Re: Hot Start, Starts then Dies

Postby enigmaticdream » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:02 pm

Blown88GT wrote:
enigmaticdream wrote:...
Questions
1-For Idle Warmup Duty/Steps values. Would the hottest value ever be set to 0% Idle PWM Duty? I imagine not since you would want some vacuum leak to come by to keep idle, but I thought I'd ask.
2-While making adjustments to the Idle Warmup Duty/Step values I ultimately settled on using the same value for the last 3 values because it was giving me the idle I was trying to aim for. Does this make sense? Should I Interpolate from a higher value so it is a more linear reduction in idle duty?
3-How big of an effect does 20F have after warmup for the CLT? My current WUE ends at 180F and while trying to do hot restart after it fired back up it seemed to be lean. Is this normal? Do I need to increase ASE taper/ASE to compensate for this? There is also more oscillation when it is around 200F vs 180F.

1. Depends on the idle valve. Even at 0, it could still be open some. When you go to closed-loop, this setting is not used.
2. Whatever works best.
3. If you get above 180, it uses the last value (180). It may go lean for a minute after hot start, mine does, just don't want it to stall. Oscillations can be difficult to zero in on. Timing can have a big effect. You might want to rescale X-axis, the 400 column will never be used & far too much timing for boost (above 100 kPa). Timing table is difficult because there is no generator. You can search around the internet to find a base map close to yours, even if it only verifies what you have now. B&G has one, but I found it to be far off.
Closed-loop can cure it or make it worse until you get it dialed in. MS3 has settings that MS2 doesn't. Give it a try; easy to change from closed to open.
Order of tuning, looks like you've completed A & B.
A. Cold Start settings
B. Cold running settings (ASE, WUE)
C. Warm start settings
D. Warm running settings

Not saying any of these are good, but you can look at & study them.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche- ... 3-2ss.html

Found a thread on our forum & it's recent (attachments are deleted after 1 year):
viewtopic.php?f=134&t=67515


Thanks for the response to my questions and the links. I was actually just looking at the first link you posted :lol: I guess I have a lot of reading/research ahead of me.

I had two more questions
-Should the x/y axes values/scales of the VE Fuel, AFR, and Ignition Timing tables be the same? While I was looking into adjusting the values to get rid of the 400 rpm cells I noticed that besides the really high kPa that the scales between the three tables don't match. VE Fuel and AFR match, but those two don't match the Ignition Timing.
-Since putting the car back to open loop idle it is idling a lot better than when it was in closed-loop idle. I know one reason to use open loop is if you have few electrical draws that can affect idle, i.e. AC. This car has no AC, no power steering, no radio, and really only gauges, head lights, and the ECU in terms of electrical draw. Is there any reason to go back to closed-loop?

Thanks
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