Ford 6R80

'Microsquirt' Transmission Control development and support.

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Raymond_B
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Ford 6R80

Post by Raymond_B »

Does anyone have info on this trans? I know it is in 5.0 Coyote Mustangs and Trucks.
1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
http://www.buildpics.org/
ashford
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by ashford »

i have looked into this a bit, it does not look promising. the trans has an internal computer(or can controlled actuator) the only connections to the trans are

1 power
2 ground
3 data lines
4 neutral safety
and reverse light out
Raymond_B
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by Raymond_B »

I found a simple Ford doc that mentioned it uses J1939, but that's not near enough info to figure out how to talk to the trans over the CAN BUS is it?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 9499,d.cGU
1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
http://www.buildpics.org/
racingmini_mtl
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by racingmini_mtl »

No. You would need the ID of the message(s) used (header content) as well as the content and format of the data section of each message. And you would need to know how the data is used or generated. You also need the data rate.

Jean
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ol boy
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by ol boy »

Does anyone know off the top of their head how many shift solenoids are in these transmissions with more than 4 forward gears? I'd like to think that at some point it becomes easier to drive each clutch pack and band from a single hydraulic valve instead of coming up with an elaborate valve body executing a k map boolean logic with plungers and springs, ect. Worst case would involve removing the current internal controller and then build a box who's sole purpose is to drive the solenoids.

I've had thoughts of building a valve body that breaks out just the required ports to drive each pack/band for the 4R70W. Selecting the gear would no longer need a manual shift lever to get into R, N or D.
306 SBFord, Torquer II EFI intake, 60 lbs injectors, 8 LS2 coils, VS Racing 7668 turbo, 4R70W, MS3x fw1.4 w/built in trans controller.
jsmcortina
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by jsmcortina »

Chrysler seems to do it full electronic. It is a pig to control, hence the "highly experimental" tag attached to the one gearbox that is almost supported.

James
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ashford
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by ashford »

if you want that info i can get it for you, its just a pita to decipher, print attach etc
hardline
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by hardline »

I have a factory service manual for this that goes into great detail of shift strategy and operation, but it is much too large to upload here. 16MB PDF.
2000 ZX2 : Sequential COP, MS3 + MS3X + TinyIOx, PWM Returnless Fuel, Flex Fuel, Variable Geometry Intake Manifold, Garrett GTX2863R .82AR housing @ 15 psi
Raymond_B
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by Raymond_B »

I've got 250GB worth of Skydrive storage, I could pop it up there and then post a link??

PM me your email address if ya want.
1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
http://www.buildpics.org/
hardline
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by hardline »

I shot it to James already, but whats your email addy and I'll send you a copy too
2000 ZX2 : Sequential COP, MS3 + MS3X + TinyIOx, PWM Returnless Fuel, Flex Fuel, Variable Geometry Intake Manifold, Garrett GTX2863R .82AR housing @ 15 psi
hardline
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by hardline »

So it looks like there are 5 shift solenoids (1-4 PWM, 5 on/off), 1 PWM EPC solenoid, and 1 PWM TCC solenoid. It might be possible to drive the 5th solenoid with the Tacho output, with a buffer circuit installed, or with a Microsquirt Module and a customized parent board with the appropriate circuitry installed on it.
2000 ZX2 : Sequential COP, MS3 + MS3X + TinyIOx, PWM Returnless Fuel, Flex Fuel, Variable Geometry Intake Manifold, Garrett GTX2863R .82AR housing @ 15 psi
ol boy
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by ol boy »

Could the 4 pwm solenoids just be driven as on/off? The 4r70w uses accumilators and springs to slow down the engaugement between gears. Id like to adapt this 6r80 behind a pushrod 5.0L.
306 SBFord, Torquer II EFI intake, 60 lbs injectors, 8 LS2 coils, VS Racing 7668 turbo, 4R70W, MS3x fw1.4 w/built in trans controller.
hardline
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by hardline »

I don't see any accumulators in the hydraulic circuit.
2000 ZX2 : Sequential COP, MS3 + MS3X + TinyIOx, PWM Returnless Fuel, Flex Fuel, Variable Geometry Intake Manifold, Garrett GTX2863R .82AR housing @ 15 psi
ol boy
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by ol boy »

Tjats what im saying. If you pwm in the hyd pressure for each pack/band you control how long or quick each gear comes in.
306 SBFord, Torquer II EFI intake, 60 lbs injectors, 8 LS2 coils, VS Racing 7668 turbo, 4R70W, MS3x fw1.4 w/built in trans controller.
hardline
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by hardline »

I'm not sure if it would bolt up to a 302. It bolts up to the 5.4 and the Coyote, but they have a different bellhousing pattern. I'd also be concerned about breaking hard parts if one were to drive the solenoids as on/off.
2000 ZX2 : Sequential COP, MS3 + MS3X + TinyIOx, PWM Returnless Fuel, Flex Fuel, Variable Geometry Intake Manifold, Garrett GTX2863R .82AR housing @ 15 psi
Raymond_B
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by Raymond_B »

Coyote bolt pattern is definitely different than 302/351 V-8's. Bell housing and flexplate would be other items to figure out.
1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
http://www.buildpics.org/
apalrd
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by apalrd »

I stumbled on this thread looking for something totally different, but have some insight on transmission controls and solenoids.

Chrysler electronic transmissions (42TE and derivatives, 45RFE and derivatives, and 62TE) modulate the clutch pressure by PWMing a solenoid with an accumulator, with a dedicated solenoid per clutch. Chrysler has always used dedicated solenoids per clutch for this, although they repurpose the LR clutch solenoid for TCC lockup since LR is only used in 1st gear.

The controls for this are 'volume based', they determine the required clutch pressures and determine the duty cycle required to achieve that pressure. Most of the shift sequence is timed by firing the solenoids at the right time for the clutches to fill/drain and hand off torque correctly, but the controls can slow down the shift to make it feel better, usually by holding a constant turbine acceleration. One clutch is 'in charge' of the shift, either the applying or releasing clutch, it depends on which shift logic it uses, and the other is PWMed to match.

Most modern transmissions use a dedicated solenoid per clutch. In some cases they remove the shift cable entirely, and transmit the shift request over the CAN bus. A lot of them use VFS type solenoids which are constant-current controlled, and the output pressure is directly proportional to the input current.

VFS solenoids are also used with torque converter clutches to allow partial slip operation, which is commonly used when the engine is doing something which could cause a torque bump (such as going into fuel shutoff or deactivating cylinders).


In relation to the thread, Wikipedia suggests the Ford 6R is a derivative of the ZF 6HP26 design, which ZF also suggests. A Google search led me to this http://www.ukrtrans.biz/files/2010/08/Z ... ission.pdf which shows the shift map of the solenoids and clutches on pages 43 and 44, which specifies that clutches A,B and C have dedicated VFS solenoids, there is a dedicated VFS solenoid for line pressure, a VFS solenoid shared by clutch E and D, and a VFS solenoid for torque converter clutch. There are digital solenoids for 'shift' (involved in shifting the E/D clutches onto a single solenoid) and two for park lock (only present without the mechanical shift cable).

To control this properly, you will need 6 constant-current drivers and 3 PWM drivers, along with quite a bit of software (similar to the Chrysler software, but without the benefit of accumulators to smooth things out).
ashford
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by ashford »

i just stumbled across something, the 2011mustang does not have a mechatronic unit, it has 5 shift solenoids, tcc and line pressure solenoids. i do not know what years and models do not but this looks more promising
ol boy
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by ol boy »

3 1/2 years from the dead.. Yes it looks like from 2011 to 2015ish the TCM was removed from the trans and controlled by the ECM. 7 solenoids total to drive. I'm finding 2013ish year 6r80's for around $400 in Tucson yards with less than 80K miles on them. This seems plenty doable!
306 SBFord, Torquer II EFI intake, 60 lbs injectors, 8 LS2 coils, VS Racing 7668 turbo, 4R70W, MS3x fw1.4 w/built in trans controller.
jsmcortina
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Re: Ford 6R80

Post by jsmcortina »

The big question is whether the fundamentals of the transmission are the same?

1. does it still require precise timing and PWMing of the solenoid controls. (Seems likely.)

Or 2. has it been totally reworked such that the solenoids are on/off and the valve body does the shifting, like the 1990s transmissions. (Seems unlikely.)

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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