double clutch gearboxes control

'Microsquirt' Transmission Control development and support.

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double clutch gearboxes control

Postby Manu » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:05 am

Hello James,

A customer asked me if he can control a double clutch gear box using a microsquirt with transcontrol firmware ?

Target gearboxes are :
Porsche : pdk
Vw : dsg
Renault : edc

Thanks.
Manu
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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby jsmcortina » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:16 am

I'm afraid not. The trans control software is for hydraulic autoboxes.

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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby Lyonz » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:35 am

Le controlleur DSG a besoin de quelques infos provenant du calculateur moteur et/ou ABS.
Sa passe par le réseau CAN a des adresses bien précise
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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby racingmini_mtl » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:56 pm

Lyonz wrote:Le controlleur DSG a besoin de quelques infos provenant du calculateur moteur et/ou ABS.
Sa passe par le réseau CAN a des adresses bien précise

Est-ce que ces adresses et infos sont disponibles? Si oui, ce pourrait être quelque chose de relativement simple à ajouter au logiciel.

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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby Raymond_B » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:02 am

For us English only speakers :)

"The DSG controller needs some information from the engine and / or ABS computer.
Its pass through the CAN network has very precise addresses"

Reply

"Are these addresses and info available? If so, it could be something relatively simple to add to the software."
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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby elaw » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:50 am

I seriously doubt this would be simple to add to the software! A DSG works differently from an "old-school" automatic in almost every way.

In addition, to protect the clutches, it wouldn't surprise me if in cars with DSGs, the transmission controller can command the engine controller to reduce torque at certain times. So without a drive-by-wire ECU on the engine and communication between it and the transmission controller, you could damage the transmission.
Last edited by elaw on Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby Manu » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:34 pm

Elaw is right here. Gearbox ask a certain amount of torque to the engine control unit, using CAN. There are also plenty of parameters involved as vehicle speed, current throttle position, etc... This is not an easy gearbox to control, even with all informations available.

Today OEM ecus won't *think* in alpha/n or pressure/n but in *torque request*. Those requests are made from other calculators in regard with there needs and the ecu add them to deliver what is requested plus the driver request (and many others requests).
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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby Matt Cramer » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:38 pm

The torque reduction could be accomplished with a spark retard; the current MicroSquirt TCU firmware does this. If we are not trying to control the actuators in the DSG, but simply pass on signals to another unit, spoofing the signals the control unit needs is likely to be an easier task.
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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby Paul_VR6 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:05 pm

*very* interested in this
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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby mickeymarrows » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:07 am

I realise this is almost useless, but a couple of years ago when I was developing my installation of the MSGPIO Trans control on an Audi gearbox I did some research into what would be needed for the VW DSG gearbox I had in my daily driver at the time. To be honest, once I got into it, it was not nearly as complicated as I initially thought.. I even started trawling ebay for a DSG box to play with. Unfortuanatly I no longer have access to my research though as I lost the laptop and for last couple of years my life has taken a different path, like I said.. useless :)
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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby Manu » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:17 am

following Jean's thoughts, we *may* use the gearbox original TCU. It *may* be a good idea. In this case there will be no need to use a µS TCU, but devs have to implement original CAN frames and required strategies in MS3 ECU. What do you think about this James ?

Best regards,
Manu
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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby Matt Cramer » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:28 am

At this point, we'd need to see what the CAN protocol does to see how difficult or easy it would be to copy it.
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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby Lyonz » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:45 am

Manu, do you remember me?
You were on vacation, we saw Moise once in Guadeloupe, we were 4 to discuss.

Otherwise, I have to work on a megasquirt based project with DSG gearbox.
I think it would take a "sniffer" of the CAN bus to know exchanges and addresses. We sell a lot of sniffer, or do it with "Arduino" or "Atmega" bases.
The idea would be to keep the mecatronic module, because you will never be able to do better than it and to be able to exchange the necessary information.
On MS3, with the programmable shiftlight module, one can even deduce the gear ratio engaged, on an Arduino forum, I found this information for a project DSG indicator

Found on one forum :
0x540 is the Can id for the transmission data.
Park is 540,0,0,FF,0,FF,0,0,26
Reverse is 540,0,0,FF,0,FF,0,0,36
Neutral is 540,0,0,FF,0,FF,0,0,46
Drive is 540,0,0,FF,0,FF,0,0,56
Sport is 540,0,0,FF,0,FF,0,0,66
1st is 540,0,0,FF,0,FF,0,0,2F
2nd is 540,0,0,FF,0,FF,0,0,3F
3rd is 540,0,0,FF,0,FF,0,0,4F
4th is 540,0,0,FF,0,FF,0,0,5F
5th is 540,0,0,FF,0,FF,0,0,6F
6th is 540,0,0,FF,0,FF,0,0,7F

Pour commencer :
http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_308.pdf
http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_238.pdf
http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_269_d1.pdf
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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby Manu » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:06 am

Hello,

After a fast discussion with a friend who work at a mondial car manufacturer (and who can access resources) we had a few emerging points :

  • try to include CAN commands in let's say an MS3 *may* not be the best option because :
    1. If the manufacturer change something in his CAN frames we have to adapt to it and this can lead in many changes in the firmware
    2. We *may* need as many CAN setup that there are manufacturer, even models of gearboxes at a same manufacturer. This is a hard work to follow this trend
    3. Find the relevant CAN informations can be *very* hard. i.e. : my *very good* friend won't give any us informations because he can loose is job. Theses informations are *classified*
  • Seat have a specific ECU for it LEON CUP (race car). This is an Bosch EDC17 with a specific firmware that drive the engine AND the DSG gearbox. Thus this is possible
  • It seem doable (and maybe not so hard) to make a specific TCU that can drive such gearbox. Doing this may be a better thing because it *may* adapt to all gearboxes since they *seem* to all use the same hardware logic.

My 2cents.
Regards,
Manu

Lyonz wrote:Manu, do you remember me?
You were on vacation, we saw Moise once in Guadeloupe, we were 4 to discuss.

You're welcome :D
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Re: double clutch gearboxes control

Postby jsmcortina » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:49 am

The timing requirements to control the gearbox internals are likely way beyond the Microsquirt's capabilities.

In the short term, supporting the CAN messages needed for the stock ECUs to work is perhaps the only way ahead.

In the long term, perhaps a more advanced gearbox controller can be built to handle all of the internals.

James
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