4L80E setup and log files

'Microsquirt' Transmission Control development and support.

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4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:32 am

hi guys (and girl?),

I bought a Microsquirt in januari of 2015 and finally got around to installing it together with my 4L80E transmission in my car. This is my project page:

http://www.facebook.com/77suburban

I made a succesfull test drive yesterday. I think I got it all worked out, but Id really appreciate it if you guys could look into my setup file and tell me what I see in my log file. This is my first Megasquirt install and In have no experience with 4L80E transmissions.

setup file:
TACH_IN_solution_zenerdiode.jpg
zener diode for tach signal
TACH_IN_solution_zenerdiode.jpg (27.81 KiB) Viewed 298 times


log file:
mayden voyage.msl
mayden voyage first test drive log file
(399.25 KiB) Downloaded 6 times


my setup:
Microsquirt V3 for transmission control
1977 GMC C15 suburban with Big Block V8 7.4L
HEI ignition
bi-fuel: carburator for gasoline and IMPCO300 mixer for propane

for a tach signal I got help from a facebook group and now use this zener diode solution to connect to my TACH connection (coil negative) on my HEI ignition:
TACH_IN_solution_zenerdiode.jpg
zener diode for tach signal
TACH_IN_solution_zenerdiode.jpg (27.81 KiB) Viewed 298 times


the signal seems clear and first test drive was OK.

The 1-2 shift is pretty hard, while other shifts aren't as hard.

Could you please help me by looking at my setup and log files and check if I am OK? would really appreciate that
Attachments
2017-11-11_17.09.41.msq
my msq setup file
(25.43 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:32 am

and I allmost forgot. I am running MAP sensor for LOAD INPUT, since I dont have a TPS sensor yet.

and also noticed when I floored it yesterday, it didnt downshift
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby wes kiser » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:40 am

Did you select MAP sensor for load in the settings? I am in a place where I can view the log, but not your .msq file.

For the 1-2 gear shift, about all you can do is reduce line pressure first gear (if it is harsh on the 1-2 shift). Is it harsh like "normal" shift kit harsh? Or harsh like "its going to break something?"
86 Rx-7, swapped to 2.3 ford turbo (BW EFR 6758), ms3/ms3x sequential fuel /waste spark, ls2 coils
88 Tbird 2.3t, Microsquirt Module (PIMP), TFI ignition
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:29 am

wes kiser wrote:Did you select MAP sensor for load in the settings? I am in a place where I can view the log, but not your .msq file.

For the 1-2 gear shift, about all you can do is reduce line pressure first gear (if it is harsh on the 1-2 shift). Is it harsh like "normal" shift kit harsh? Or harsh like "its going to break something?"


hi Wes, cool to see you answering my topic over here too...very cool!

Yes I set the MAP for load indication in the BASIC SETTINGS.

There is only on main linepressure table/graph, but I have these curves for shifting (defaults):
shift_curves.png
shift curves
shift_curves.png (71.64 KiB) Viewed 289 times


and the shift is FIRM...not like harse stuff is gonna brake, but fels like a good kick! compared to the smooth shift for 2-3 during normal acceleration.

any thoughts on the downshift?
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby wes kiser » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:03 am

Get a log of a point you expect a downshift to happen. Are you happy with shift points?
86 Rx-7, swapped to 2.3 ford turbo (BW EFR 6758), ms3/ms3x sequential fuel /waste spark, ls2 coils
88 Tbird 2.3t, Microsquirt Module (PIMP), TFI ignition
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:20 am

wes kiser wrote:Get a log of a point you expect a downshift to happen. Are you happy with shift points?


ok, Ill see if I can get that figured out.

I have only made a short test run...maybe 2-3 miles and not above 50mph...so never got to 4th of lockup
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:57 am

I found out why It shifts so hard.

I am using MAP for load indication, because I don't have a TPS yet. It is showing 80% load when it's idleing. So guess that's the problem.

I have no idea where I should adjust this. All tips are welcome

IMG_20171117_185726.jpg
IMG_20171117_185726.jpg (347.55 KiB) Viewed 257 times
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby BigBlockMopar » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:06 pm

Where/How did you connect the MAP-sensor on the engine?

Put a regular vacuum gauge on the hose and see if the reading corresponds to the digital MAP-gauge.
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:16 pm

Hi Herman, the connection is right at the base of the plenum, so full manifold.

I need to see if I can find a gauge and hook it up.

the strange thing is my reading are going down, when they should be going up. or shoudlnt they?

engine OFF, Key ON: gauge maxed out at 100 kPa
idle: 75-80kPa
part throttle, cruise: 55-60 kPa
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby ashford » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:58 pm

looks like you have a bit of a cam in it, if you do that is a normal reading, tps works much better for trans control. your shift points are way too low. i have found you can just about double the default curvs and will bee closer
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:32 pm

ashford wrote:looks like you have a bit of a cam in it, if you do that is a normal reading, tps works much better for trans control. your shift points are way too low. i have found you can just about double the default curvs and will bee closer


My engine is bone stock. So the readings can't be right.

I am using this ebay 3bar map sensor

https://m.ebay.com/itm/New-GM-STYLE-MAP-Sensor-3BAR-3-BAR-For-Electromotive-Motec-Megasquirt-With-Plug/272262609557?hash=item3f641dba95:g:6n8AAOSwuhhXUS8B

Ill see if I can borrow a vacuum gauge and check the readings and volts
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:54 am

well, steep learning curce these last few days.

checked my MAP sensor with a vacuum gauge:
https://youtu.be/LCjEqlvDzl8

found out that my engine had 2 exhaust valves set to tight after the rebuild causing a erratic vacuum reading:

https://youtu.be/GK4xu28iUEg

I fixed that by going over all the vales and finaly found exhaust 6 and 8 were tight

video of running engine without valve covers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZbIRxe-s-A

video of steady vacuum reading after loosening exhaust #6 and #8
https://youtu.be/Xxgfbr2Inqw

what I learned is that not just intake vales can cause bad vacuum readings, but also the exhaust valves.

I was helped by Dave Buck Shaw in this troubleshooting of my engine through messenger, pretty awesome.

then I still had the problem that the 50kPa at idle was causing a 50% lead reading, so the transmission would shift late and hard.

Jesse Brown, friend on Facebook, then explained to me that there is no such thing as 0% load when using MAP for load indication. He then explained to me how the MAP reading is a reference to use and that the TCU will shift on load at a certain vehicle speed and that I had to adjust my shift curves myself.

I did just this and now I am getting much better shifts and even drove it home.

suburban at home.jpg
suburban at home
suburban at home.jpg (165.41 KiB) Viewed 225 times


microsquirt working on way home.png
screenshot driving home
microsquirt working on way home.png (295.81 KiB) Viewed 225 times


I'll upload my MSQ file later today, hope it helps somebody else too
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:24 am

this is my latest MSQ file.

hope it helps somebody else

My engine idles at about 50-55kPa. So my LOAD is at 50-55% at idle and I worked from there in the various configurations.

QUESTION:
I am looking for a stock line pressure-load table for a stock 4L80E. Can somebody point me to this?

2017-11-20_15.55.16.trip2schiphol.msq
latest tune file
(30.35 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:07 pm

I bought a oil pressure test gauge, because I wanted to do a line pressure test. Which is always good to perform after you rebuild your transmission. I included a photo that has reference values. Values can be different based on special modifications made to the transmission.

my readings turned out OK:
Line pressure test cold:
Idle P/N 130 psi
Reverse idle 200 psi - WOT ~300 psi
D idle 140 psi - WOT ~200 psi

so cold readings are fine. Now I need to take some readings with a well warmed up engine, to be 100% sure

4L80E_linepressure_test_values.png
reference chart transgo
4L80E_linepressure_test_values.png (709.06 KiB) Viewed 154 times


hbm-0811.jpg-1920x1080-abf6637c8d.jpg
oil pressure tester 0-500psi
hbm-0811.jpg-1920x1080-abf6637c8d.jpg (173.7 KiB) Viewed 154 times
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:32 am

I tested tonight to see what the influence is of adjusting the linepressure table, versus the measured lineressure with a gauge.

I tried several settings for idle 5, 8, 10, 15 and even 50% linepressure. But the measured line pressure never goes below about a 100 psi in idle and D....it will rise when I raise the linepressure percentage in the table.

So how is this handled? is there Always a MIN from where the solenoid of the linepressure can only go up?

I have to mention that my 4L80E had the Transgo shift kit installed
http://www.transgo.com/products.php?prd=SK-4L80E&homeinclude=catalog&category_id=98&parent_id=31&product_id=201&countdisplay=1&start=0&addcountview=Yes
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:32 am

I had a long drive this weekend. total of 269 km. I notice that the 1-2 AND the 3-4 have the THUD at light throttle. Even my passengers asked me about it "is that normal?" :shock:

2-3 shift on the other hand is smooth as butter, no slip, just smooth soft engagement at light throttle.

In my case light throttle is between 55 and 65 kPa, which in the LOAD table corresponds to 0-20% load

any thoughts on where to go with my tune to make these light throttle shift for 1-2 and 3-4 smoother?

linepressure.png
current line pressure - load table
linepressure.png (24.79 KiB) Viewed 106 times
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:38 pm

I did some more testing this weekend.

first tested line pressure agin witrh a dry pressure gauge. And the needle jumped all over the place:
https://youtu.be/lmOwWPBd604

then borrowed an oil filled gauge and everything looked fine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Av3OxmR9Sc

I then put the Microsquirt in TESTMODE and tested the line pressure at different settings. I noticed that any setting below about 15% would make the trans start to shake. And also that line pressure will not drop below 100 psi, even if I set it to 2 or 3%. It does rise above to about 150psi when I set it at 50%. So solenoid seems to be working fine.

So still dont understand why my 1-2 and 3-4 like a THUD and 2-3 is smooth.
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:19 am

I would really appreciate it if somebody would read up and give me feedback on the information I shared. I am new to this stuff and was really hoping to find some support over here.
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby LAV1000 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:24 am

Don't know much about automtaic transmissions but dit you try the manual ?
http://www.msextra.com/product-range/ex ... n-control/

You don't have to read the whole manual just the parts you need.

so shift 1>2 not so good
shift 2>3 good
shift 3>4 not so good
If you are looking at youre datalogs and compare the "good" an "not so good" shiftings.
Isn't there something that looks awkward ?
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Re: 4L80E setup and log files

Postby kikkegek » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:30 pm

LAV1000 wrote:Don't know much about automtaic transmissions but dit you try the manual ?
http://www.msextra.com/product-range/ex ... n-control/

You don't have to read the whole manual just the parts you need.

so shift 1>2 not so good
shift 2>3 good
shift 3>4 not so good
If you are looking at youre datalogs and compare the "good" an "not so good" shiftings.
Isn't there something that looks awkward ?


hi thanks LAV1000 I read the manual several times, because I did my own install...thanks...

I am new to this, so dont know what things to look at in the log files to compare...any tips?
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