Forcemotor control

'Microsquirt' Transmission Control development and support.

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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby jsmcortina » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:38 pm

What measured line pressure psi do you get at "0%" ?

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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby kikkegek » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:40 pm

jsmcortina wrote:What measured line pressure psi do you get at "0%" ?

James


dont have that reading

:oops: :oops: :oops:

I had just taken the gauge of the trans and couldnt feel my fingers any more...I am in front of the house on the street. and its freezing. I had borrowed the gauge and goes back to my friend tomorrow.... :( :( :(
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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby jsmcortina » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:47 pm

kikkegek wrote:
jsmcortina wrote:What measured line pressure psi do you get at "0%" ?

James


dont have that reading

You really need that one though!!

James
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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby kikkegek » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:45 pm

ok, check...dressed up and went back out again and took the measurements.

heres the vdideo, cold trans and engine though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0v9pq7e7Ow

you can see how line pressure drops, then rises again and finally drops at 2%, 1% and 0%

4% - 120psi
3% - 120psi
2% - 100psi
1% - 100psi
0% - about 50 psi
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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby jsmcortina » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:43 pm

Something does seem a bit fishy here, possibly a number overflow in the firmware. I'll check it on a scope.

James
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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby kikkegek » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:06 am

jsmcortina wrote:Something does seem a bit fishy here, possibly a number overflow in the firmware. I'll check it on a scope.

James


well glad I went out there again to take this video. hope you find something. thanks for the quick reply's 8)
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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby jsmcortina » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:23 am

jsmcortina wrote:Something does seem a bit fishy here, possibly a number overflow in the firmware. I'll check it on a scope.

I tested on the scope using your MSQ and EPC test mode. The PWM duty from 0 to 100% works exactly as expected.

I cannot explain the strange current behaviour you are seeing. As a test, connect the EPC (INJ2) output of the ECU to a headlight or sidelight bulb to 12V. (Aim for less that 55W.) Vary the duty from 0 to 100% and see what the bulb brightness does. That will eliminate the ammeter from the equation and see what a resistive load is doing.

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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby kikkegek » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:48 am

hi James

did the test with a big T10 halogen bulb

test checks out fine. Full control from 0-100% of the power. This bulb uses 0.8A when connected to 12V. So about 10Watts

as you can see in the video the EPC output works just fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0WC20G2ECc

Although I am happy my Microsquirt is working just fine. I am afraid I have to pull the trans to find out whats going on here.

Seems to be a problem with the force motor or something else hydraulicly ging wrong in the trans.
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Re: 4L80E: force motor and line pressure control problem?

Postby kikkegek » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:13 am

ashford wrote:
this code isnt just for 4l80, different solenoids have different impedance, for example the 4r70 has 3 different impedance epc solenoids the latest was high impedance and has a control range for me of 20-80%. also you can add a resistor inline with it to widen the window, i have done this to the 4l80 install i did as it works much better.

with the information you have posted it leads me to believe there are 2 possible modes of failure.
1. amperage readings are inaccurate and there is a hydraulic issue
2. wiring/solenod issue or failing/self protecting transistor in microsquirt

for #1 amp clamp style ampmeter are very inacurate at lower currents. there is a trick to this wrap the wire around the clamp 10 times in a coil so that the wire passes through the center 10 times an you will have a reading 10 times higher. also being that this is a pwm signal on an inductor this can do funny things. you might be able to get a more accurate reading in ac mode so long as you are in the 30-70% range. when doing an actual test it would probably be be best to do a dc reading on the switched power side with no flyback. with flyback it woul be best beteen transisot and flyback.

if that checks out fine i would then unplug the us find its pressure solenoid wire , put a jumper in it and ground it. if it has the same readings as when testmode has 0% there is a wiring problem from us to solenoid or solenoid. if it is different ther is a problem with the us, ground, horrible flyback, transistor or it is self protecting


so the INJ2 output signal checks out just fine as you can see from the video.

Next thing I am trying is to ground the PCS and see if I also get about 3Amps.

And Matt said I could try adding a 1N4001 diode from the EPC solenoid wire to 12 volts, banded end to 12 volts. Nobody ever reported this issue, but the 1N4001 diode clamps the flyback voltage from the solenoid when it closes. Adding this can slow the valve's closing and help "park" the solenoid in the middle of its travel.
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Re: 4L80E: force motor and line pressure control problem?

Postby kikkegek » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:21 pm

kikkegek wrote:
ashford wrote:
if that checks out fine i would then unplug the us find its pressure solenoid wire , put a jumper in it and ground it. if it has the same readings as when testmode has 0% there is a wiring problem from us to solenoid or solenoid. if it is different ther is a problem with the us, ground, horrible flyback, transistor or it is self protecting


Next thing I am trying is to ground the PCS and see if I also get about 3Amps.



put a jumper on the PCS (connected it to ground) and measured the current. Its about 2.5Amps. is that close enough to the 3A when in operation?

I did test the current KEY ON, but ENGINE OFF.
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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby kikkegek » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:19 pm

installed a 1N5819 diode, because I didnt have a 1N4001. But read online that its the faster better version, so assumed it was OK.

did two tests.

KEY ON, ENGINE OFF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B8s7x2LtLA

0% = 2.1A
10% = 1.65A
20% = 1.30A
30% = 0.94A
40% = 0.65A
50% = 0.39A
60% = 0.20A
70% = 0.03A
75% = 0.00A

KEY ON, ENGINE ON
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Hry_yybrlk

0% = 2.6A
10% = 2.20A
20% = 1.60A
30% = 1.16A
40% = 0.84A
50% = 0.54A
60% = 0.35A
70% = 0.05A
75% = 0.00A


so it seems like installing the diode fixed the strange readings on the force motor.

do these readings seems OK?

cant waite to take it on a test drive and see if the hard shifting is solved now.
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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby kikkegek » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:51 pm

:yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!:
:yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!:
:yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!:
:yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!:
:yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!: :yeah!:

I am so happy right now............the transmission shift like butter. I cant even feel the shifts at the current settings. I need to check my Shadow Dash or TS display to know what gear I am in.

I guess now its just tuning to see where the smoothness turns into tight shifts...but I am so happy I have control over it now.

thanks for the awesome support 8)
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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby Dutchredhead » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:15 am

Great man!
Properly solved.
E28 525e -M20B27- DIS, MS2 V3.0
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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby LAV1000 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:49 am

Nice to read you nailed it !
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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby jsmcortina » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:57 pm

When I get chance, I'll update the documentation to suggest that diode is installed.

James
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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby kikkegek » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:21 pm

jsmcortina wrote:When I get chance, I'll update the documentation to suggest that diode is installed.

James


excellent. Thanks for the suport James :-)

I already mailed a couple folk that were having simelar issues, hope it helps them too.
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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby jamies » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:33 am

kikkegek wrote::
I am so happy right now............the transmission shift like butter. I cant even feel the shifts at the current settings. I need to check my Shadow Dash or TS display to know what gear I am in.

I guess now its just tuning to see where the smoothness turns into tight shifts...but I am so happy I have control over it now.

thanks for the awesome support 8)

hey mate just a heads up, when you 'cant feel the shifts' is not great, you want the shifts to be firm.
when you have the line pressure so far down the shifts are smooth you are causing a LOT of slippage in the transmisison frictions and its not going to last that long
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Re: Forcemotor control

Postby kikkegek » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:43 am

jamies wrote:hey mate just a heads up, when you 'cant feel the shifts' is not great, you want the shifts to be firm.
when you have the line pressure so far down the shifts are smooth you are causing a LOT of slippage in the transmisison frictions and its not going to last that long


thank you Jamies. appreciate that. That was clear to me. you dont want it to "slide" into the ext gear. I understand that will cause unnecessary wear on the friction plates. So I am currently tuning and test driving and upping the line pressure constantly looking where firm meets comfort.

the funny thing I shared this weekend on my Facebook project page is that the current line pressure table is very close to the table the firmware ships with ;-) . Guess those stock values arent that bad ;-)

ignore the LOAD values because I use MAP for load instead of TPS (which I dont have yet).

line_pressure_curves_compared.png
line pressure curves compared
line_pressure_curves_compared.png (88.09 KiB) Viewed 76 times
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