No cranking PW indicating on dash display during cranking

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No cranking PW indicating on dash display during cranking

Postby woznaldo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:17 am

I had been running my MS1 Extra setup for ignition only for sometime. I've finally got around to fitting my EFI setup after an engine rebuild (run in on the old carb) and I can't get it to start. It turns over ok, shows rpm of around 300 which jumps to 500 after splutter. The manual said to check TPS wiring which I did and found 0v and 5v inverted. That was fixed and TPS re-calibrated. still not displaying Cranking PW, although there is a smell of fuel coming out of the exhaust?

I've attached the msq file to see if anyone can see anything obvious. I haven't taken a datalog yet.

The car is a Renault 5 GT Turbo running a 1397cc OHV inline 4, 8 valve with T2 turbo

All advice appreciated.

Woz
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Trying to make my Renault 5 GT Turbo a bit more driveable and a lot more reliable!

1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo MS1 Extra
1972 Datsun 510 - L18 on Twin Webers
1973 Jaguar XJ6 - 4.2 XK on std twin SUs, but plans to squirt in the near future...
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby Matt Cramer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:43 am

I'd like to see the data log too. These are often a sensor issue.
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby woznaldo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:48 am

I'll grab one first thing in the morning. Don't think the neighbours would appreciate it now (almost midnight!).
Trying to make my Renault 5 GT Turbo a bit more driveable and a lot more reliable!

1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo MS1 Extra
1972 Datsun 510 - L18 on Twin Webers
1973 Jaguar XJ6 - 4.2 XK on std twin SUs, but plans to squirt in the near future...
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby woznaldo » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:06 am

Finally got round to taking a few logs, but not before re-reading the manual and the special note about MS1 Extra and the TPS Flood Clear setting (still at zero. Ooops)

So I now get PW displaying on the Tunerstudio display, but still having start issues. I have noticed that my spark advance goes to zero while cranking? Not sure if this is normal?

All of my after start enrichments are set to zero. Is this ok?

msq and logs attached
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Trying to make my Renault 5 GT Turbo a bit more driveable and a lot more reliable!

1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo MS1 Extra
1972 Datsun 510 - L18 on Twin Webers
1973 Jaguar XJ6 - 4.2 XK on std twin SUs, but plans to squirt in the near future...
woznaldo
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby woznaldo » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:37 pm

I should also point out that my starter motor has been sticking (despite being relatively new), so there are several clicks followed by ignition off and having another go until the engine finally turns.

The motor was initially cranking at 250-300 rpm, but then seemed to free up and turn at 500 rpm (i can't remember if this was after a particular MS adjustment?) and I did have my cranking RPM set at 500. should I raised this to 600?
Trying to make my Renault 5 GT Turbo a bit more driveable and a lot more reliable!

1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo MS1 Extra
1972 Datsun 510 - L18 on Twin Webers
1973 Jaguar XJ6 - 4.2 XK on std twin SUs, but plans to squirt in the near future...
woznaldo
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby woznaldo » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:48 pm

Ok, I made a few changes to my settings as follows:

Cranking PW
Image

After Start Enrichment
Image

Datalog of Ignition Advance during Cranking
Image

The car turns over quite happily at around 200 rpm (battery not charged since first attempt) and occasionally does a single 'pop' from the exhaust? Not sure what this means other than fuel and spark are getting somewhere??

Is it normal for the ignition advance to have a static advance of 10-11 deg and then it drop to ZERO during cranking?
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Trying to make my Renault 5 GT Turbo a bit more driveable and a lot more reliable!

1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo MS1 Extra
1972 Datsun 510 - L18 on Twin Webers
1973 Jaguar XJ6 - 4.2 XK on std twin SUs, but plans to squirt in the near future...
woznaldo
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby woznaldo » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:35 am

In the 'Spark Settings' the EDIS info in the manual says to set the 'Cranking Advance Angle' to -10, so I assume that's why the TunerStudio display shows 0 advance during cranking (spark table (+10) + cranking advance (-10) = 0? Can I adjust this to get the car started?

The car has started on the current spark table and settings (whilst on the old carb), but was very lumpy and it took a few attempts.

Does MS1Extra have injector dead time? I'm running 440cc/min injectors (Bosch Green Giants) on my 1397cc OHV Engine (hoping for big things) and wondering if my Cranking PW is still too high?

Here's the lastest msq and datalog.

Woz
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Trying to make my Renault 5 GT Turbo a bit more driveable and a lot more reliable!

1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo MS1 Extra
1972 Datsun 510 - L18 on Twin Webers
1973 Jaguar XJ6 - 4.2 XK on std twin SUs, but plans to squirt in the near future...
woznaldo
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby woznaldo » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:39 pm

Can someone please confirm that injector dead time and injector opening time are one and the same?
Trying to make my Renault 5 GT Turbo a bit more driveable and a lot more reliable!

1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo MS1 Extra
1972 Datsun 510 - L18 on Twin Webers
1973 Jaguar XJ6 - 4.2 XK on std twin SUs, but plans to squirt in the near future...
woznaldo
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby Matt Cramer » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:13 am

What MS1 called opening time is more accurately dead time. Later firmwares corrected this potential source of confusion.
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby woznaldo » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:00 pm

Thanks Matt, I was a little confused with the different names for it. Hopefully this is my issue and I should be able to reduce the cranking pulse width to prevent flooding.

I will just reduce the 'injector opening time' a little to see if it helps, but appreciate an accurate measure of opening time should be derived experimentally using my MS1 (and hence the actual drivers being used).
Trying to make my Renault 5 GT Turbo a bit more driveable and a lot more reliable!

1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo MS1 Extra
1972 Datsun 510 - L18 on Twin Webers
1973 Jaguar XJ6 - 4.2 XK on std twin SUs, but plans to squirt in the near future...
woznaldo
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby woznaldo » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:31 am

Ok, I'm not sure what's happening at the moment, but I couldn't even get the car to fire, no matter what PW I choose. I noticed that ignition advance was sometimes meant going to zero and other times going to -10 (EDIS setup).

I can only assume that my cranking RPM is set too low and it's switched from cranking to the base map? That said, when I advance the cranking angle to the 10 BTDC the car engine almost stuttered into life momentarily, but the advance was zero while ch is not what the base map would be at 99 kPa??
Trying to make my Renault 5 GT Turbo a bit more driveable and a lot more reliable!

1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo MS1 Extra
1972 Datsun 510 - L18 on Twin Webers
1973 Jaguar XJ6 - 4.2 XK on std twin SUs, but plans to squirt in the near future...
woznaldo
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby Matt Cramer » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:09 am

:msq:
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby woznaldo » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:43 pm

Sorry, wasn't on my laptop and didn't have access to them. Here they are:

EDIT: I should add that while this msq will show the cranking RPM at 400, it was set at 300. I changed it, but have yet to test it.
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Trying to make my Renault 5 GT Turbo a bit more driveable and a lot more reliable!

1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo MS1 Extra
1972 Datsun 510 - L18 on Twin Webers
1973 Jaguar XJ6 - 4.2 XK on std twin SUs, but plans to squirt in the near future...
woznaldo
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Location: Canberra (Previously UK)

Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby Matt Cramer » Mon May 01, 2017 12:43 pm

The EDIS settings may just not display a spark advance commanded below cranking RPM.
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby slow_hemi6 » Mon May 01, 2017 5:08 pm

Edis module provides it's own cranking advance. It starts around TDC and builds to the normal 10BTDC edis base timing around 400rpm. After 400 rpm EDIS relies on SAW and if a SAW is not recieved it will drop into limp (10BTDC base). Edis has an operational range of 10BTDC to 58ishBTDC. This is the full range of SAW lengths. MS sends SAW to control timing so it is imposible to send anything less than 10BTDC.
Find the Manuals up top under Quick links: Manuals. :RTFM:
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby jsmcortina » Mon May 01, 2017 5:27 pm

Actually, EDIS can command up to 10ATDC. (Check the patent!)

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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby slow_hemi6 » Mon May 01, 2017 6:01 pm

Well there you go, I always thought the 58 to 10 was BTDC. Thanks James.
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby woznaldo » Tue May 02, 2017 1:37 am

Thanks for the replies! So are you saying that the cranking advance angle is irrelevant when using EDIS? That doesn't sound right to me? Why is nothing mentioned in this the manual about this, or anywhere else from what I can see?
Trying to make my Renault 5 GT Turbo a bit more driveable and a lot more reliable!

1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo MS1 Extra
1972 Datsun 510 - L18 on Twin Webers
1973 Jaguar XJ6 - 4.2 XK on std twin SUs, but plans to squirt in the near future...
woznaldo
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Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby woznaldo » Wed May 10, 2017 4:04 am

Ok, so I finally found some time to do a few more checks, one being a check on if the all the injectors are actually firing fuel. I found this thread that led me in the right direction: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=50651&p=370933&hilit=testing+injectors#p370933 and found that INJ2 (connected to injectors 2 and 3) wasn't firing in my 2 squirts alternating configuration. Just like in the above thread, I simply connected all four injectors to INJ1 and instantly got a start that fired and sort of ran (very low RPM (600-700)) for a few seconds and cut out. I tried upping the after start enrichment, but not sure if it helped.

I think it could be ignition related or even RPM signal. In the attached datalog you can see the max rpm peaked at 13000 RPM! (it didn't). So why would this happen? Is it normal while cranking to see strange spikes?

I ran out of time, but if anyone can see anything else that stands out, please shout out.

Woz
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Trying to make my Renault 5 GT Turbo a bit more driveable and a lot more reliable!

1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo MS1 Extra
1972 Datsun 510 - L18 on Twin Webers
1973 Jaguar XJ6 - 4.2 XK on std twin SUs, but plans to squirt in the near future...
woznaldo
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Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Canberra (Previously UK)

Re: No cranking PW indicating on dash display during crankin

Postby woznaldo » Tue May 16, 2017 3:16 am

Still having issues with the car and just can't get it started so I've pulled my MS1 off the car and hooked up the Stim to see if anything untoward is happening.

I have noticed a few weird things that I can't explain. It might be my settings, but I don't think so.

1. If I adjust the CLT or MAT for a given RPM, when the Temp goes above a certain point, the PW goes to zero? If I increase the RPM, the Temp at which the PW goes to zero increases.

2. Occasionally INJ2 wasn't firing at all (couldn't get it to happen during the datalog), which was happening on the car, but all injectors are now connected to INJ1.

3. At one point and the PW wasn't changing with RPM. This happened once and not while datalogging.

In the attached datalog you can see the Temp/RPM/PW interaction, but not the other two issues?

If anyone could possibly point to a part of the board that looks after this interaction(?), that would be great. I have visually checked and can't see any dry solders, but that's not definitive.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Trying to make my Renault 5 GT Turbo a bit more driveable and a lot more reliable!

1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo MS1 Extra
1972 Datsun 510 - L18 on Twin Webers
1973 Jaguar XJ6 - 4.2 XK on std twin SUs, but plans to squirt in the near future...
woznaldo
Helpful MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:51 am
Location: Canberra (Previously UK)


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