Ae86 w/stock 4ag running MSnS-E w/stock distributor resolved

[neil85ae86]

it's been a slow tedious process dialing my starts, both cold and warm. I found through experimentation that the fixed map and decay made a very nice improvement.

I just find that the 4age likes to be super rich when it's cold, to the point where ppl question my settings as being realistic, but you just proved that they work so I don't feel alone anymore ..haha

more improvements will come over time

Neil

[sick_86]

Yeah! LMAO... my 4ag loves the gas at idle expecially when its going to be close to 5 bucks by this weekend! anyways NEIL85ae86, whats your current setup on your ae86 motor wise?

[neil85ae86]

here's a link to my success story;

http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=692

to sum it up,

stock GZE block with 8.9:1 compression, and smallport head, using T3 smallport adapter, with welded intake valleys on the intake manifold, stock smallport cams, stock GZE 365cc injectors, fuel rail etc. Walbro 190 fuel pump, smallish IHI turbo running 10-10.5 psi boost.

Neil

[Fatbastard]

I wonder if the stock cold start injector is still firing in the intake manifold? That'd mess with everything at idle.

I miss my AE86's

[foca]

hey guys. I know I am a newbe, so I'll try not to waste TOO much of your time. Hope you can answer a quick question for a fellow 4AGer. i have read a lot of documentation, including James's write-up, on MS and I am just about ready to make a purchase. My final goal is a 20V turbo, with distributorless wheel-decoder ignition, not EDIS. So I want to learn on my stock AE86, just as James did. so, here is what I will order:

V3.0 board
MS1 chip so that I can run MSnS Extra

I am using James's blueprint and will do everything the same, until I get familiar with everything.

My main question is that, if I have a v3 board and MS1, will I be able to run the 2nd trigger wheel decoder and a dual coil, distributorless set-up? Is there anything that might mess me up in trying to get to my final turbo 20V distributorless setup??

Thanks fellas. sorry again for the dumb question. just wanted to get some final advice from guys that know. thanks.

[lmr052]

My main question is that, if I have a v3 board and MS1, will I be able to run the 2nd trigger wheel decoder and a dual coil, distributorless set-up? Is there anything that might mess me up in trying to get to my final turbo 20V distributorless setup??

The main issue I see in this is that the stock 4AGE16V distributor is quite different to the 20V. Either can be modified to drive a dual coil setup. The 16V can be modified to use 2nd input, where as the 20V has to use 2nd input if you do not modify it.

There is nothing stopping you getting a clone of Jamesl's setup working now and then build a 2nd VR conditioner for the 20V for the future. The MAP table will be quite different though

Regards, Richard

[foca]

lmr052, are you using an igniter, or have you eliminated it? Yes I am aware of the distributor differences, but if I got it working on the 16V setup like you said, making some minor changes to it for the 20V should get me there. ditto on the different maps.

I think I messed up on what I am supposed to be purchasing. I need to run MSII, don't I? for the Fidle ignition control james uses.

Now, I thought MSnS Extra only works with the first gen chip. So, If I wanted to run the distributorless system, 2 coils, wheel-decoder for the cam VR's, wasted spark, I would not be able to do it with MSII, right?? I need MSnS Extra. am I confused?

[foca]

oops, i meant I need MS1 chip for MSnS extra to run james's setup. so can I put this on a V3.0 board?

Then the rest of the question applies. how do I get to the distributorless setup for the 20V, from that point?

[lmr052]

lmr052, are you using an igniter, or have you eliminated it? Yes I am aware of the distributor differences, but if I got it working on the 16V setup like you said, making some minor changes to it for the 20V should get me there. ditto on the different maps.

I think I messed up on what I am supposed to be purchasing. I need to run MSII, don't I? for the Fidle ignition control james uses.

Now, I thought MSnS Extra only works with the first gen chip. So, If I wanted to run the distributorless system, 2 coils, wheel-decoder for the cam VR's, wasted spark, I would not be able to do it with MSII, right?? I need MSnS Extra. am I confused?

I am currently using an OEM igniter. I have plans to go distributorless using VB921s and a pair of Hyundia Excel coils. The changes for the 20V are not really minor. There is some risk and some tweaking required if using the distributor unmodified (like I do).

Yes, MSnSE is only for MSI. My personal opinion is use LED17 (V2.2) or LED14 (V3) for spark. Use FIDLE for idle control either now or in the future. The LEDs are already configured for 5V which is perfect for the igniter or VB921 whereas FIDLE is originally configured for 12V.

Either V2.2 or V3 PCB could be used. You need a daughterboard with either by the time you add knock, 3 wire IACV and 1 (V3) or 2 (V2.2) VR conditioners. Another consideration is whether you will run low impedance injectors without resistors and hence flyback, and how you want to mount VB921s for wasted spark. V3 board has more potential for these types of things.

Do your homework and document what you want and how you plan to do it.... and consider how much of the OEM wiring harness you want to modify. I prefer plug and play as much as possible hence I plan to replace my single igniter outside of MS and my MS sits inside an OEM ECU. Only you can sort out what is right for you.

Regards, Richard

[kaos42_ze]

my car uses different injectors, different VE, different Req fuel, but since this is just percentage based my settings may work for you.

here's the modified .msq with my settings

Ha ha ha ... i was about to post how great this map idles and how much it sucked while driving ... and i just realized that your 4AGE has a turbo on it and mine doens't ... i just have a HKS DD exhaust with factory cat & the MAP with a filter right on it in front of the TB.

You are from Ontario ... can you help me tune my beast or recomend anyone around K-W & Toronto area ?

Can you help me mod your file so it does not dump so much fuel when driving / flooring it ?

[kaos42_ze]

I just did some light tuning and heres the result! My 4age pretty much idles pretty good now at 900+ rpm and pulls very close to stock maybe better. So if anyone can help me make my tables look any better or needs a base 4age fuel and ignition table feel free!

I did not try your maps today ( getting late and i already hauled the PC back to the basement )

But what kind of set up do you have ? And how does it drive in the mid-range & flooring it ?


thanks a lot guys ... can't wait to get the car running right and than i will attempt this ... AE101 ITBs than turbo on top after

[foca]

Richard,

the 4age does not have a active IACV does it? as in, there is no stepper motor, right? the idle air is a passive coolant-temp-controlled set-up. Or am I getting confused here?

Ditto on going in through the factory harness.

[kaos42_ze]

I just realized something .... buggles me now

Why does Neil86 map i got is running on my car run so good ... when he has 365cc injectors and i have 182cc injectors ???

[muythaibxr]

I just realized something .... buggles me now

Why does Neil86 map i got is running on my car run so good ... when he has 365cc injectors and i have 182cc injectors ???

possibly b/c his req_fuel is probably a lot lower.

In other news for anyone that cares:

I'll be getting the 20v 4age with dual mazda rx7 ignitors/coils using the distributor's stock wheel as a CAS running in the next 2-3 weeks. (Just have to take care of running coolant lines and building the idle valve circuit and welding a bung on my TRD header for the wideband). I cut 2 teeth out of the distributor to make it 12-1 instead of using the 2nd trigger though.

Ken

[lmr052]

Richard,

the 4age does not have a active IACV does it? as in, there is no stepper motor, right? the idle air is a passive coolant-temp-controlled set-up. Or am I getting confused here?

Ditto on going in through the factory harness.

My belief is that there should be 2 connectors on the throttle body
- 3 wire IACV
- 4 or 5 wire TPS.

The IACV is not a stepper motor. It works by having a common +12V and two coils that are controlled with varying duty cycles to increase or decrease air. The IACV works in conjunction with the wax-stat temp controlled setup. The 3 wire connector is near the wax-stat and bypass air pipe.

Perhaps the setups varied for different markets/emission rules

Regards, Richard

[muythaibxr]

as far as I know, for the US market, this is how it went:

For warmup fast-idle, there's a thermowax that was on an Idle Air Controller Valve... This controlled warm-up fast-idle... there was also a VSV for electrical idle-up (headlights and such), a VSV for air conditioning, and setup for the power steering to idle up the engine every time the wheel is turned.


The engine I was referring to that had the 3 wire IAC is a 20 valve 4age with quad throttle bodies... it uses the IAC valve for warm-up idle speed, and for things like AC turning on etc... I'm putting a 20 valve 4age in my ae86, so I'll be using the megasquirt to control the IAC valve and the ignition and pretty much everything else....

Ken

[sick_86]

kaos42_ze - my set-up... High compression Redtop 4ag with hks mushroom filter and Greddy DD exhaust and thats about it! and as I stated before it now feels just a bit better than stock.

[kaos42_ze]

Cars differ on their needs, but I would say the VE map looks very rich, especially in the lower kPA range. If you haven't already, you should get a wideband O2 sensor to help you fine tune things.

I got a Greddy O2 sensor and i was wondering if i need to chage anything in the program to let it know it is a different type of sensor ...

[kaos42_ze]

Wow .... it has been a year now ... still not running the MS, ITBs still on the garage floor, turbo & pipes still in some other corner ... sux when you have only one car.

I am going to bust out the computer in the garage again and give some maps a try and maybe read up and figure out if i can do anything to make the car run with MS.