Making MS1 pcb 3.0 work with 4age stock distributor/ignition

froej25 · Post by **froej25** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:35 pm

Any idea what the offsets for the VAST distributor would be? I got it to start and idle for a few revolutions, but then it dies; it runs very rough while it runs. I was thinking it may be due to timing being way off. We pulled a sparkplug and it is firing, but only when its not cranking; VAST igniter doesn't send a signal when its cranking, so MS won't send a signal to fire, and since I don't have the igniter hooked up, no spark. The instructions for MSnS say:
1) Set the trigger angle to 10 deg BTDC, which causes MS to fire in the "Next cylinder mode."
2) On the Spark Settings page, you set "Spark Output Inverted = NO".
3) Trim Angle, Hold Ignition and Trigger Angle Addition all should be set to zero.

#1: How do I set MS-II to fire in "Next cylinder mode"?
#2: I assume this is supposed to be the same for driving the VAST igniter, not inverted (i.e., normal); however, since I am driving the coil directly, I changed this to inverted.
#3: I have no idea how to set this for MS-II.

In MegaTune, my settings are:
Ignition Options:
Trigger Offset (deg): 10
Skip Pulses: 15
Ignition Input Capture: Rising edge.
Cranking Trigger: Trigger Return
Coil Charging Scheme: Standard Coil Charging
Spark Output: Going High (Inverted)

Well, that's pretty much it for now... My brother wants his truck back, so if I can't get this to work within the next few days we're probably going to go with a GM VR sensor in the distributor; will require some fabrication, but it should be doable. Its much better supported at this time than Toyota stuff. And then it'll match the GM TPS we have on the truck (which is, apparently, backward relative to the Toyota part; I had to wire it backward to get it to work right).

Oh, one other thing; has anyone tried to use the Toyota VR sensor directly? It doesn't appear to work like most VRs; it needs voltage to generate a signal to modify, as far as I can tell from other documentation; if I could just run 5-12V to it, and have it put out a usable signal, that would be preferable; totally eliminate the igniter. I'd have to rework the PCB inputs, but that would be worth it to keep the existing hardware. Thanks...

FoundSoul · Post by **FoundSoul** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:26 am

You probably don't want to try looking for the equivalent settings from MSns-E in the MS-II settings, check out this thread for setting up the MS-II: http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=12226

Spark Output: Normal / Inverted needs to be tested to make sure it's right. You test the coil to see if it's charging when the key is on but the engine isn't running... it shouldn't be. Whichever setting has the coil NOT charging in this position is correct. The above thread goes into more detail. This one stays true for MS-II or MSnS-E.

The other settings the above thread is a big help on.

froej25 · Post by **froej25** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:59 am

Ok, I'll try setting it up again. I think the settings are right, except for the cranking trigger. I do have one question about what you posted earlier though; when you say "Rising Edge, TO-50", is that indicating -50 degrees of timing, or 50 degrees? As entered in MS? I know the stock Toyota system triggers for the NEXT spark, not the current one; is this what the "negative" timing does? Or is that just how you typed it, with no significance attached to the "-" sign? As rough as it runs now, I'm a little scared to do too much to the timing; I'd hate to destroy the starter...

FoundSoul · Post by **FoundSoul** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:26 am

That is a bit confusing... I'll fix it.

It's 50. Not -50.

cornphlake · Post by **cornphlake** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:44 pm

Hello, been digging and digging and I am on step 50 MSI V3.0 assembly. Vehicle is 1985 Toyota Corolla GTS. Stock ignition being used. From reading this and other threads, I haven't seen mention to the type of ignition circuit needed to be built. I have seen that this is a VAST ignition system, but I don't know which type that relates to in the assembly instructions. Which one do I build?

Another question. If you are just jumpering 5V or 12V here or there, why do it with a 1K resistor instead of just a piece of jumper wire? I would rather not lose anything built into the ECU, I don't know why but it kinda disturbs me. When you get your spark signal from D14, which to me seems like this was not its intended use, is this LED removed or do you tap off of the wire closest to the DB9 connector? Same with the D1 to D9 jumper, do the diodes remain in place, or are they removed?

I plan on using any option I can with this fine ECU and don't wish to give up something if I don't have to, like fast idle or anythin gelse that can be implemented. Also, I don't know why, but like I said, it kinda disturbs me to run a spark signal off of a simple indicator LED.

So, well, I guess "Help" is in order. I'm stuck at step 50 and don't want to procede to make a labor intensive mistake.

Thanks in advance, I expect to be on this forum quite often as of now!!
Russ

cornphlake · Post by **cornphlake** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:47 pm

Found this pic from the owner of sparkandfuel.com

I assume this is what we are talking about with getting the spark signal off the D14? Just seems like there should be a better way to do it, but then again, I would never be able to be the one to figure it all out.

Basically, this picture, with D1 and D2 installed & jumped, is what is required to run a 4ag with stock ignition coil & ignitor? I also noticed his jumper positions for xg2 to xg1, tachselect to optoin, and and optoout to tsel are setup for the hall / optical / points style system. Is this also what I should implement?

Very appreciative...
Russ

FoundSoul · Post by **FoundSoul** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:31 am

You do run the Hall/Opto circuit to begin with, then mod as per this thread.

The LED17 spark signal is the best way to grab the spark signal without sacrificing anything-- in the past you used FIDLE and sacrificed your Fast Idle control. LED17 is better.

As the MS-I was originally designed for Fuel-Only this is the best way to go about this. It required some custom coding and these mods but MSnS-E is very capable. I've been running a similar setup in my MR2 for well over a year now and it runs great.

sparkandfuel.com · Post by **sparkandfuel.com** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:09 pm

Jerry is right,
d14 (called d17 on the ver2.2 PCB) is really an easy way to do the ignition out signal. it also doesnt use up the idle up signal, so you can continue using that feature if your car has an ecu controlled idle up solenoid. while the oem bluetop 4age has the mechanical version on the throttlebody and does not have an electrical version (not really anyway, you could rig up enrichments in megatune though) it is still probably easier to just set it up the way the picture showed since its all right there anyway.

you should also look at the mods needed on the underside of the board, there is a jumper set to go between d1 and d9, with a 1k pull up resistor. (its the wire and resistor with the red/pinkish heat shrink)

underside:
http://colorvalve.dyndns.org/images/gar ... get98.html

topside:
http://colorvalve.dyndns.org/images/gar ... get99.html

the other extra mods ive got on that board opperate the vvt/tvis (simular to vtec in nature, for those out there without toyota knowledge). its a basically straightforward setup- just make it look like the one in the picture and you're set. while i'm all for everyone understanding the inner workings of megasquirt, i also know that sometimes it just has to work and it doesnt matter how. thus, just do it like the picture states and you'll be fine.

correct me if im wrong about something here, im open to editing. got any thing to add to this jerry?

FoundSoul · Post by **FoundSoul** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:15 am

For the standard VAST ignition system, which is what I have on my 86 MR2, and what most of the USDM 4ag's and 22r's run (not all...) you want to use the Hall/Opto input and not the VR Input. You're right that the VAST ignition system uses VR sensors... so it's a bit confusing... but the VR sensors are conditioned by the VAST ignitor, and the VAST ignitor then sends a square wave signal to the ECU, that we are then intercepting and bringing into pin 24 of the MegaSquirt where it's interpreted as a digital square wave signal... like a hall or optical sensor's signal. It's somewhat similar to a 7 pin HEI system in that respect as that does the same thing... or EDIS for that matter. All of these systems use a VR sensor and toothed wheel, but they condition the signal and the MS recieves a conditioned square wave signal into the OPTOIN input.

For example... the v2.2 ECUs don't even have a VR input and they run on the VAST cars great--- all they have is a OPTOIN unless they are modded with a VR conditioner.

Now for the JDM DLI system the story is different--- since it's not distributor based it would be a whole different story of triggering from it's wheels through one (or more likely) dual VR inputs. Then you could probably do a wasted spark COP setup ala MSNS-E. More complicated but sweet...

Vanhoe · Post by **Vanhoe** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:08 pm

I am planning to install MS on the 4A-GE engine and don't have any
electronics of the engine just the engine and its distributor with the VR-sensors.
The V3 board can handel a VR-sensor doesn't it?
It seems that the VAST system you are talking about is the same as any other VR conditioner to get the square wave signal.
Only in the case you don't have these modules the best way is the V3 unit
to receive the VR signal.

Ivan

te51levin · Post by **te51levin** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:36 pm

FoundSoul wrote:This should work for you Coty if you want to mod it internally--

For the ignition input:
We need a 12v pullup. Install a 1k resistor between the right side (non-band) end of D1 and the left leg (banded end) of D9. (Note: True it doesn't matter which side of D1 it's in if it's just jumpered...)

For the ignition output on LED14:
First we need to bring the ignition output from LED14 out to a pin on the DB37. To do this run a small piece of hookup wire from LED D14's leg that's closest to the DB9, over to the hole labeled IGN at the opposite end of the board. This will bring the ignition signal out on pin 36, MS-II style.

Now we need a 5v pullup to this wire we just ran. That's easy on the v3 PCB as there are two 5v sources just above the proto area labeled +5v. Use a 1k resistor from one of these +5v holes either to the wire itself, or by tapping another piece of wire onto this resistor and running it over to IGN as well. (You could just tap it onto D14 as well, but it might be a little crowded there....your call)

This is the best/clearest explanation I've seen. I kinda think it should be standard issue in any 4AGE plug-n-play documentation, because it wasn't exactly clear to me that it needed to be done to establish complete communication between the board and the ignitor. Somehow I neglected to do this and had spark, but no fuel, and no RPM showing in MegaTune. Once I got these two pullups installed the thing fired up without drama (except for the fact that it is totally untuned and pig rich - but on the plus side, I did get really cool fireballs out the exhaust pipe).

Thanks to everybody who contributed to this thread (and others), this is actually a really easy conversion.

woodc · Post by **woodc** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:35 pm

After many moons I finally got back into my MS project :-) Per my earlier promise here is a pic of the custom harness adapter using the MSpiggy from diyautotune.com and the connectors out of a spare ECU.

and here is the adapter that uses the plug from a spare AFM to hook up the AIT and some of the WB02 items

I have spent a good bit of time over the past couple weeks working on the MS and am having mixed results <sigh> The learning curve is steep <grin> I have a couple of base maps that *sound* like they should work perfectly but the car still runs like crap :-( The car starts/idles OK...but the fuel maps are way off.... I also tried to get my LC-1 working today with the MS (works fine with the Logworks 2 app) and had mixed results...but need to spend more time reading. My last logged run looks like it remained in open loop the entire run <scratching head> and I have a *nasty* "on throttle blip" lean condition....just tapping the gas while it is idling runs the AFR into uber lean for an instant before it catches up.

Does anyone have any updated 4age maps. My engine is pretty much a stock 86 4age, stock ignition, .020 over pistons, intake, headers to pretty much straight pipe exhaust, and that is about it <shrug>

Thanks!

te51levin · Post by **te51levin** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:39 pm

I got mine working today and very driveable in only a few hours, but I'm only using a narrowband o2 sensor. Here's my method so far:

1) Get car up to operating temp and set VE so idle mixture oscilates in closed loop and is stoich right near 100%.
2) Set VE as above for all points practical with no load (sitting in the driveway raising RPM bit by bit and monitoring o2 feedback).
3) Drive car gently, either with copilot to make changes, or with Autotune making changes to VE maps on the fly (be sure to alter your settings file to allow Autotune to work under an appropriate range of MAP and RPM settings).

Come to think of it, I don't see why you couldn't use Autotune to set the no-load stuff as well, once you get reasonable VE at/near idle. But this is my first day playing with this, so someone more experienced may want to jump in and correct me.

Glad I'm not the only guy with a red AW11 reading this thread

MegaScott · Post by **MegaScott** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:18 am

So maybe you guys can trade VE and Spark Maps?

I think that you will really only get the very bottom row setup in your driveway, which is OK, but you'll have to lower the Map default to get Autotune working there, and also you'll have to lower the thresholds for EGO to kick in. To start out you probably want to raise the EGO correction % a little just in case your way off base on your starting VE map. Also don't be suprised if you have to rescale the MAP and RPM values a few times in order to cover the "peaky" areas of the map, this is true especially if you are running spark control.

I would not use a NB to determine the correct idle mixture, you don't want EGO correction at idle with a Narrow band, you will get hunting as the engine cycles rich - lean - rich, even at only 1% correction. Turn off EGO correction below 1200 rpm, and tune the idle based on Vacuum, lean it out and watch the vacuum, once it stops decreasing (smaller Map) and the engine starts to miss or slow down, richen it up a bit and call it good, make an area where the idle VE values are the same, where the engine will idle at a consistant basis based on atmospheric conditions and minor RPM fluxuations.

You need to watch out for Autotune, all it knows is what EGO correction is feeding it, if you are rich enough to have raw fuel out the exhaust, Autotune will think it's lean and richen it up even more, you need to watch it and turn it off if it starts to go off scale like that. Also you can fool the O2 NB or WB if you have even the slightest Detonation, so watch it.

te51levin · Post by **te51levin** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:14 am

Scott makes some interesting points.

I wouldn't mind sharing my maps, but 1) they're not anywhere close to done (today was the first day driving the car on MS), and 2) my engine is only structurally similar to his stock 4AGE. It has more displacement, compression, headwork, cams, manifold, header, exhaust, etc and I doubt my maps would do him any good. Mine's about 50% stronger than a standard 4AGE and was right on the edge of being tolerable with the stock ECU; I actually went to MS mostly to be able to set the spark map, as the stock ECU has way too much vacuum advance (pardon the comparison) for my compression ratio. I think you can find stock 4AGE maps around here, though.

My engine has crappy vacuum at idle, so I had a bit of a hill to climb to get it to work. The stock ECU is closed loop at idle, so I did it as well, but I will experiment with it as well as with EGO correction (didn't know I could adjust that). Sounds like you are describing the old "1/4 turn leaner than lean best idle speed" mixture adjustment method. I did notice much more hunting and slower 02 sensor response than the stock AFM-based system on the same sensor (monitored with a Split Second a/f ratio meter, and yes, I am aware of the inherent limitations of NB).

Thanks for the warning about Autotune. I have been fattening up anything that reads lean (if outside the range of Autotune, which I have altered to my own preferences), and have not yet seen any false lean readings, but I will stay aware of that tendency/possibility.

MegaScott · Post by **MegaScott** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:36 am

te51levin wrote:Sounds like you are describing the old "1/4 turn leaner than lean best idle speed" mixture adjustment method. I did notice much more hunting and slower 02 sensor response than the stock AFM-based system on the same sensor (monitored with a Split Second a/f ratio meter, and yes, I am aware of the inherent limitations of NB).

Yes that's exactly the analogy I was looking for. Really tuning with Megasquirt is little different than when you had a carb, just you don't have to pop the hood and take the carb apart to do it.

woodc · Post by **woodc** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:31 am

What are you guys using for required fuel? I have seen/tried 12.3, 12.6 and 14.x....

Thanks
Coty

te51levin · Post by **te51levin** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:41 am

I'm using 10.1, which is what it suggested with my combination (1784cc, 295cc/min injectors). Seems OK so far.

te51levin · Post by **te51levin** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:58 am

OK, now I really need some help. I really messed up. I wanted my thermo sensors to be accurate, so I used EasyTherm to set them up (turns out they are apparently the same as Bosch sensors, which makes sense since it's really licensed L-Jetronic anyway). What I failed to notice is that after doing that, EVERYTHING went back to base maps. The car ran horribly, so I started setting it back up the way it was. Unfortunately I didn't remember about the dwell settings, so I roached the igniter. Not cool!

Now, I think I have the board set up to work the coil directly. I have the VR921 installed at Q16 and the whole VR circuit is in place. Jumpers are as follows:

IGN to IGBTOUT; IGN is pin 36 going to coil (-)
TSEL to VROUT
TACHSELECT to VRIN
IGBTIN to 330-ohm resitor to top of R26

I also have the following left over from the VAST setup:
D1 (jumper, not diode) to 1K resistor to D9 (non-banded end)
D2 is still a jumper, not a diode

I have yet to run this. I think it'll run the coil OK, but I want to be able to run the tach as well. What exactly powers the tach? And can someone with experience/wisdom/courage comment on my progress so far so I don't fry something else, like a tach or the MS or...?

Can I mix and match jumpers to get a signal that the tach likes while still using the VR921 and VR circuit to drive the coil?

Should I install a diode on D2?

superchargingmachine · Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:13 am

The guy I know worked the kinks out of the system you are trying to set up is James Laughlin jdlaugh@cox.net

Put a post out for JamesL and see if he is still watching MSEFI. If not try emailing him. If my memory serves me he spent a ton of time working out the system you are trying to set up. You might also search for posts by him.