EDIS Test bench, now operational…

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BRAAPZ
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EDIS Test bench, now operational…

Post by BRAAPZ »

Just a few quick pics of our make shift EDIS test bench in operation. Today we will fabricate a more user-friendly dedicated EDIS test bench for not only verifying that our used parts actually do work, but it will also be very beneficial for our future VR and 36-1 wheel testing once we acquire an “O” scope…Both Ron and myself have queried this forum in a few threads about various VR sensors, 36-1 wheel dimensions, configs, etc, but no one seems to be able to answer our questions so we’ll go at it ourselves, and of course, we’ll post our results as we record them for the rest of you to expand upon. For now, this all we have…

At this point we did learn that VR sensor wire orientation is critical to EDIS operation. If they are backwards, no spark, as per our first attempt. Swapped the VR leads and WA LA!! SPARKS-o-plenty!!
Also of note, in taking some measurements of a Ford Escort and Ford Explorer VR sensors, (both tested against a spinning Escort 36-1 wheel), the Explorer VR produced twice the voltage as the Escort VR. We haven’t formed any conclusions from this other than we aren’t going to guinea pig OUR own EDIS systems with the Explorer VR on and Escort 36-1 for fear of possibly burning up the EDIS module.
Also, with the VR sensor in the Mill vise, we are able to use the Mill table to precisely move the VR sensor about the spinning 36-1wheel with accuracy down to .0005”, and when we opened the clearance between the VR and 36-1 to .090”-.095”, we completely lost the freq signal from the VR as measured on our Fluke 87 DMM.

This initial test is an EDIS-4 system for Ron Tylers Datsun 510, (his wife’s car being the test mule for what he would like to install on “his” BMW E30 M-3). These pics are of an EDIS-4 system, Escort 36-1 wheel, Escort VR sensor and a Dodge Neon coil pack, cheesy used plug wires and new NGK BPR6ES plugs. After we get the dedicated test bench fabbed up, we’ll also be testing my EDIS-6 for my SOLO-II Datusn 240-Z running both Ford and Chrysler coil packs and then test my EDIS-8 system destined for my V-8 Datsun Z project.


Sparks a plenty..
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The test bench in its hastily prepared glory, (but it worked…), with the Escort 36-1 wheel spinning away with an Escort VR, Neon coil pack, and four NGK plugs sparking away on the Mill table…
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The spinning Escort 36-1 and Escort VR in the mill vise.
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The spinning 36-1 wheel and the DRO indicating .0475” clearance between the VR and the 36-1 wheel..

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Paul Ruschman
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motown menace
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Post by motown menace »

Very nice. I'm glad to see the Neon Coil pack works. Looks like i'm gonna have to hit the junkyard ths weekend for one.

Are you/have you done endurace testing on the coil pack to see if it lasts more than 5 minutes with the EDIS controlling it?
efahl
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Re: EDIS Test bench, now operational…

Post by efahl »

BRAAPZ wrote:Also of note, in taking some measurements of a Ford Escort and Ford Explorer VR sensors, (both tested against a spinning Escort 36-1 wheel), the Explorer VR produced twice the voltage as the Escort VR.
Paul,

Nice work. Did you do any charts of output voltage versus sensor distance from wheel for the two sensors? I'm wondering if the Explorer sensor was designed to work with a bigger assembly tolerance?

Eric
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Post by rontyler »

motown menace wrote: Are you/have you done endurace testing on the coil pack to see if it lasts more than 5 minutes with the EDIS controlling it?
We have not yet done any endurance testing... we'll do that shortly on the "official" bench tester. However, since the primary resistance is nearly identical to the Ford coil pack, I'm not expecting any problems.

rt
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Re: EDIS Test bench, now operational…

Post by rontyler »

efahl wrote: Nice work. Did you do any charts of output voltage versus sensor distance from wheel for the two sensors? I'm wondering if the Explorer sensor was designed to work with a bigger assembly tolerance?

Eric
Early in the testing, we varied the gap and I can report considerable voltage differences (percentage-wise). I didn't, at the time, make any effort to map them. Once the bench tester is complete (Paul is working on it as I type), We'll map'em and report.

cheers,rt
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Post by PSIG »

Mucho cool.. Good work! I'd love to hear the results of the sensor tests. Could you include the cam VR sensor on the Escort wheel when you test? I have a couple I could use in that combination...

Thanks again! Image
David
BRAAPZ
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Test bench is built!!!!

Post by BRAAPZ »

PSIG wrote:..... Could you include the cam VR sensor on the Escort wheel when you test? I have a couple I could use in that combination...

Thanks again! Image
David
David,
We weren’t aware that the EDIS-4 equipped Escorts in the US used a cam sensor. Tell us more and I’m sure we can include it on our “NEED TO TEST:” list…


Ok, I was able to finish the test bench today, no thanks to Ron buying me a 5th of Bacardi as incentive to HURRY UP!!! . The Bench is made from a large chunk of aluminum channel with all the appropriate holes drilled and tapped into it for mounting modules, spark plugs, and various coil packs. It is designed for a variety of quick and easy bolt up configs in very short order. On the right end of the bench is where the EDIS module goes, as far away as I could mount it away from the plugs and coils. On the left side are 8 spark plugs with the ground electrodes cut WAY back for much better visual “inspection” of the sparking event, thanks to Ron. I slotted the “channel” in such away that an EDIS-4 coil pack, or an EDIS- 6 can be mounted readily. I even went so far as slotting it for BOTH EDIS-8 coil packs as well. Then I made provisions for attaching the Dodge Neon 4 cylinder and Chrysler 6 cylinder coil packs as well. An all around EDIS 4, 6, and 8 testing facility. I think I covered at least 75% of the applications we might be testing in the future. At that, there is still room for the addition of other coils if the need arises.
First test on the new official test bench was my EDIS-6 system for my SOLO-II Datsun 240-Z using the Ford coil pack. Immediate sparks right from the get go, WOO-HOO. We had only one glitch that we still don’t know the answer to. When we shut down our prelim spin up that went perfectly, we set up the camera and went to restart it and no sparks. Hmmmm… . Did we somehow “POP” the EDIS-6 module?! After several attempts, nothing. We checked, double checked, and triple checked all the connections, every thing looked good. Tried spinning the 36-1, and again, nothing. After disconnecting the ground for a period of time and reconnecting it, turned on the mill and WA LA… SPARKS!!!!! No other issues arose during the rest of our initial play time with EDIS-6. (bizarre)
We stood in awe for awhile watching those 6 plugs sparking away while the mill run at 1480 RPM, the RPM’s confirmed with my ancient Cornwell “dial back to zero” timing light with built in tach which also has a setting for 2 stroke/wasted spark ign. It is old and slow, but it works, and seems to work fine.
I marked the 36-1 wheel with a sharpie and verified that the EDIS-6 does spark, off of the 6 tooth back from the missing tooth when set up properly. We expected the spark to be triggered at the “middle” of the 6th tooth, but in reality it was firing at the trailing edge of the 6 tooth (with the timing light set at 10 degrees BTDC. With the timing light set on zero, it was triggering off of the trailing edge of the 5th tooth behind the missing tooth as expected). I tired to get an accurate picture of this, but the angle only partial shows what I’m talking about. You can make out half the metal core of the VR sensor in that particular pic, and yes, that pic was taken with 36-1 “spinning” at speed and the timing light strobe visually stopped the 36-1 as it came around in the picture.
I know I’m forgetting something else but I’m sure Ron will fill-in whatever I missed, right Ron?
Overall, it was pretty neat to watch those “spark bolts” all lit up. Depending on our schedules over the next few weeks, we hope to do more testing, though no guarantees. I have a customers cylinder head that takes precedence over ALL other projects when it arrives…




The pic below is the test bench all ready to go. Left to righ:…, Spark plugs, EDIS coil pack next to that, EDIS-6 module, then the DBtoZ timing light, and the 36-1 wheel in the quill. Behind the whole apparatus is the automotive battery for power.

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The pic below shows 6 plugs all lit-up from the running EDIS-6 system, WOO-HOOO... (note the "flux capacitor", LOL)....

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This was our best shot of the plugs doing their job. This was a 15 second exposure and I think the 36-1 was spinning at 3400 RPM or there abouts. Ron would remember the exact RPM. At any rate, hundreds if not thousands of sparks are captured in this one picture.

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This picture shows the 36-1 wheel spinning, (right hand side of the wheel is a blur from the extended exposure time), while the strobe of the timing light optically stopped the wheel on the left hand side. If you look closely, you can make out the missing tooth just to the left of the quill.

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The pic below is of the 36-1 spinning under the strobe of the DBtoZ timing light and the camera was able to capture exactly what we saw. Note that the spark was actually occurring at the trailing edge of the 6th tooth. We were under the impression it fired in the middle of that tooth.

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Till the next update….…..
Paul Ruschman
Rusch Motorsports
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rontyler
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Re: Test bench is built!!!!

Post by rontyler »

BRAAPZ wrote:
The pic below shows 6 plugs all lit-up from the running EDIS-6 system, WOO-HOOO... (note the "flux capacitor", LOL)....

...d*** it Paul, I thought the Flux Capacitor was OUR secret?!?!? :-D

LOL buddy, rt
BRAAPZ
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Re: Test bench is built!!!!

Post by BRAAPZ »

rontyler wrote:
BRAAPZ wrote:
The pic below shows 6 plugs all lit-up from the running EDIS-6 system, WOO-HOOO... (note the "flux capacitor", LOL)....

...d*** it Paul, I thought the Flux Capacitor was OUR secret?!?!? :-D

LOL buddy, rt


...OOOPS.... Sorry Ron... I forgot that was your "special" contribution to this project... Will you ever forgive me?..
Paul Ruschman
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MegaDave
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Post by MegaDave »

Nice work, solid pictures. Great for archive?
Nothing 'squirted yet.......
MegaScott
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Post by MegaScott »

Great stuff here,

You guys can get the wheel spinning at an RPM high enough to test some kind of rev limit or spark dropout?
rontyler
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Post by rontyler »

MegaScott wrote:Great stuff here,

You guys can get the wheel spinning at an RPM high enough to test some kind of rev limit or spark dropout?

Unfortunately we a re currently limited to 5600rpm. If you build us a wheel twice the diameter with twice the tooth count we can test it to an equivalent 11,200rpm? ;-)

cheers, rt
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Post by MegaScott »

rontyler wrote: Unfortunately we a re currently limited to 5600rpm. If you build us a wheel twice the diameter with twice the tooth count we can test it to an equivalent 11,200rpm? ;-)

cheers, rt
Oh well. I guess the mystery of the EDIS rev limit lives on. I imagine if I need to know that, I can test it on my next EDIS install, Probably in my 68 Cougar. I'm in the bits collection phase now.
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Re: Test bench is built!!!!

Post by 78Spit1500Fed »

BRAAPZ wrote:...We expected the spark to be triggered at the “middle” of the 6th tooth, but in reality it was firing at the trailing edge of the 6 tooth (with the timing light set at 10 degrees BTDC. With the timing light set on zero, it was triggering off of the trailing edge of the 5th tooth behind the missing tooth as expected)....
The spark would occurr at the zero crossing of the VR sensor. The zero crossing doesn't ocurr until the tooth is moving away from the sensor. See illustration below.
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Re: EDIS Test bench, now operational…

Post by 78Spit1500Fed »

BRAAPZ wrote:...Also of note, in taking some measurements of a Ford Escort and Ford Explorer VR sensors, (both tested against a spinning Escort 36-1 wheel), the Explorer VR produced twice the voltage as the Escort VR....
I would venture to say that since the Explorer VR is designed to read from the flywheel, moving at a much higher velocity than the Escort wheel (and triggering from a much smaller "tooth") it is designed to be more efficient at working with the signal it's given.

The Escort wheel is probably very close to 50% duty cycle? (Gap length is nearly equal to tooth length) The Explorer flywheel is closer to 10% duty cycle.

Just a guess...

-Brian
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MegaScott
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Re: EDIS Test bench, now operational…

Post by MegaScott »

78Spit1500Fed wrote:
BRAAPZ wrote:...Also of note, in taking some measurements of a Ford Escort and Ford Explorer VR sensors, (both tested against a spinning Escort 36-1 wheel), the Explorer VR produced twice the voltage as the Escort VR....
I would venture to say that since the Explorer VR is designed to read from the flywheel, moving at a much higher velocity than the Escort wheel (and triggering from a much smaller "tooth") it is designed to be more efficient at working with the signal it's given.

The Escort wheel is probably very close to 50% duty cycle? (Gap length is nearly equal to tooth length) The Explorer flywheel is closer to 10% duty cycle.

Just a guess...

-Brian
Actually the diameter of the Explorer ring depends on the engine. The V6 Explorer reads a machined front balancer perimeter. The V6 OD is closer to 3.9 inches and 6.3 inches for the Explorer V8 ring. One would think the smaller ring would need more sensitivity (turns) in the sensor.
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Re: EDIS Test bench, now operational…

Post by 78Spit1500Fed »

MegaScott wrote:Actually the diameter of the Explorer ring depends on the engine. The V6 Explorer reads a machined front balancer perimeter. The V6 OD is closer to 3.9 inches and 6.3 inches for the Explorer V8 ring. One would think the smaller ring would need more sensitivity (turns) in the sensor.
Good point... I could only guess that the balancer is steel and the flywheel being cast iron would give it an advantage. (Higher iron content) I actually thought I read that the sensor was from a V8 explorer, must have imagined that!

Maybe they decided to increase the output to combat some noise in that specific loom?

Who knows why OEM's do what they do... they're much smarter than I! I'll trust most of what Ford does with drivetrains!

-Brian
Last edited by 78Spit1500Fed on Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BRAAPZ
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MORE TESTING this morning..... results within...

Post by BRAAPZ »

First the DISCLAIMER!!!!!
Now keep in mind that all of the test results we post here are under certain conditions and will not be exactly representative of every setup under all situations. Our battery voltage on the test bench is only 12.3 V. In an operating vehicle running a fully operational electrical system, 13.5+ volts, 36-1 wheels with dirt, grime, and debris between the teeth or covering the VR sensor, or other 36-1 wheels and VR sensors, the results will vary. Not too mention the combustion process has a very strong influence on the performance of the high tension side of the coil itself, i.e. yours and others results can, and will vary.
The views and opinions expressed here are ours. The information provided here-in is for entertainment only, not for investment purposes. Lack of torque has been shown to cause big wings to sprout on the back of your Honda, and in some cases lack of torque has been shown to cause cancer in laboratory rats. Void where prohibited, batteries not included.




Latest update.
Went out his morning to perform some testing to answer Eric Fahls question. (Eric has been very instrumental in helping me sort through my laptop MT and MSnS-E software woes, I’m just glad I have the opportunity to return some info back to him that he can use.).
This mornings tests consisted of;
1) VR Voltage measurements,
2) At what VR to 36-1 wheel clearances will EDIS run at reliably?
3) Verify the EDIS-6 firing order, and
4) Does my Chrysler 6 cylinder coil pack work with the EDIS-6 module?


1) The VR AC voltage was measured at different RPMs, 140 rpm, 270 rpm, 1900 rpm, 3740 rpm, and 5600 rpm. These runs were tested using an Escort 36-1 wheel and an Escort VR sensor. All RPM’s were set per the mills settings and then verified using the inductive tach of the DBtoZ timing light connected to the running and sparking EDIS-6. Then I disconnected the VR leads from the EDIS system and clipped on my Fluke 87 DMM to the VR leads for Voltage measurements. Results are in the Excel sheet pictured below.


2) Then I reconnected the entire EDIS system and at all 5 RPM settings with a starting clearance of .045” VR to 36-1 wheel clearance, proceeded to add clearance between the VR and 36-1 wheel until EDIS-6 did something different or strange. I also had the inductive tach connected to see if EDIS would start to scatter or have intermittent spark when the VR clearances became too great. The results were interesting and didn’t seem to follow any trend. Suffice to say, EDIS will continue to spark at great distances, and when it hits that brick wall, it just shuts down, no scatter or intermittent spark. Also, we had the strobe going on the 36-1 wheel/damper to see of the timing would “wander” as the gap increased. NOPE! The ignition events remained ROCK solid steady no matter what the VR to 36-1 gap was, all the way out till EDIS shut down all together, and as soon as I brought the VR clearance back to where EDIS would light back up, timing events were right back where they are supposed to be.
The VR to 36-1 wheel clearances at which the EDIS shut down and the clearances which EDIS came back on line sparking, is at the top of the Excel spread sheet below.


3) Firing order of the EDIS-6 was confirmed as in the illustration below…


4) Yes, the Chrysler 6 cylinder coil pack runs on the EDIS-6 Module.



On the bottom of the spread sheet is mention of Ron’s voltage test comparing an Escort VR sensor to the 4.0 V-6 Explorer VR sensor on a spinning Escort 36-1 wheel at varying RPMs. The Explorer 36-1 wheel this sensor came from measures approx 3.7” or thereabouts. It appears that we just may have to acquire an Explorer 36-1 for more testing.

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Paul Ruschman
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BRAAPZ
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EDIS-8 running....

Post by BRAAPZ »

EDIS-8 is operational.
I couldn’t do all this testing today without at least verifying that my EDIS-8 system for my V-8 Datsun Z project actually works as well. Ron had the idea of completely cutting off the ground electrodes for a more “photogenic spark display”. I agreed and promptly chucked up each spark plug in the lathe and completely removed any remnants of the ground electrode what so ever, effectively making these cheapo AC plugs “surface gap” plugs. They sure do light up nicely, don’t you think?
Being as I love to take pics with my Nikon D-SLR, the EDIS-8 running surface gap plugs made for a great photo op. I’m sure these are pics that only a true gear head could appreciate….


This pic is the test bench and the EDIS-8 system sparking all 8 plugs on the left…

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I couldn’t make up my mind which of these 2 pics was more impressive, so here are both of them. All 8 plugs all lit up using 30 seconds of extended exposure. There are over 5100 sparks present in each photo alone…

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A pair of plugs arcing away…
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One plug showing its cone of fire… 3400 RPM, 30 second exposure…
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Paul Ruschman
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http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?t=15436

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MegaScott
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Post by MegaScott »

Brian, V9? what were you smoking?


Paul,

Great work, those Spark pics Rock! I would have neverthought the sensor gap could go anywhere near that far...Good Data.

Love that Disclaimer!! (heh heh...wings sprouting on a Honda) :lol:
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