EDIS Test bench, now operational…

[efahl]

Brian, V9? what were you smoking?

He's been hanging with VW guys again, the V9 is half of the W12 and the big brother of the VR5.

Great work, those Spark pics Rock!

That's no kidding, they are really cooll.

Eric

[78Spit1500Fed]

Brian, V9? what were you smoking?

It's good stuff, want some? It's called "fatty finger."

I've edited my post so you look silly, not me!

-Brian

[MegaScott]

Eric,

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of an Audi 5 with another 4 added on the side.

All kidding aside, I can't wait to see what comes next from the test bench, whoo hoo great Balls of fire!!!

[BRAAPZ]

Latest update guys…

This mornings test consisted of angling the VR sensor in relation to the 36-1 wheel to see how a running EDIS-8 system responded. I tilted the VR upwards of 30 degrees, (when viewing the 36-1 wheel from the front of the engine head on, imagine tilting the VR to the left or right upward of 30 degrees), and the spark timing was ROCK solid. No wandering, scatter, intermittent, etc. Just Rock solid steady consistent firing.
At this point we have come to the conclusion that this EDIS stuff is very forgiving to installation error.


Both Ron and myself are itching to try out some other wheel designs such as a chain sprocket. I found totally by accident while goofing around the shop that the OE Chevrolet SBC timing gear on the camshaft is 36 teeth and it also just happens to be within 1/16th” overall diameter of the Escort 36-1… “Who’d a thunk it?” Any how, the tips of the teeth are somewhat rounded as you can imagine, so we are curious as to just how sensitive the EDIS system would be to those rounded teeth. My initial guess is that it will work and spark the EDIS system, but I also “think” the spark timing may wander a bit because there is no real sharp break point on the tooth. We’ll just have to test to know for sure, right?










Ron wants to test another style of wheel. One that has the teeth sloped on one side but a nice clean 90 degree break on the other, i.e. each tooth is a triangle instead of a block. He has a couple 4 ½” diameter cutting wheels for the mill that have 36 teeth of this triangular shape. Ideally, his goal is to hopefully get a 72-2 (the 2nd missing tooth is 180 degrees out from the first missing tooth), so it will run off the cam sprocket under the timing cover of his project. If you stack two of these cutters together, but clock them 5 degrees from each other, you end up with this 72 tooth arrangement in only 4 ½” diameter…Of course we need to know if EDIS will even run with such a tooth shape and then to find a VR sensor that is sensitive enough for that small of tooth.

[BRAAPZ]

Tonight Ron set up his 36 tooth “cutter blade” idea mentioned and pictured above after grinding off one of the teeth. He only tested a single blade for now. After verifying that it did produce AC voltage when being “spun” in front of a VR sensor, it was time to see if EDIS would “spark” the plugs with this wheel…
Being as the EDIS-8 system was till set up on the bench, he tested that cutter wheel using both the Escort VR and the 4.0 Ford Explorer VR. Results were the same with both VR sensors.
EDIS-8 ran great on this cutter at 2800 RPM. Steady, no wandering, smooth and crisp. But when he tried to run it at 5600 RPM, he encountered intermittent spark. The inductive tach was bouncing all over the place between 5100-5450 RPM, even though the wheel was spinning at a true 5600 RPM, indicating intermittent spark. The timing marks were steady and stable, no wandering or scatter, just not firing consistently. Being as the EDIS-8 is known for having higher RPM rev issues, we set up the EDIS-6 on this same cutter wheel arrangement and at 5600 RPM it was rock solid. No intermittent sparking like the EDIS-8 gave us under the identical conditions. So I went ahead and chucked up the Escort 36-1 and Escort VR on the bench, and ran the EDIS-8 up to 5600 RPM with a known 36-1 and VR combo and it was rock solid. (5600 is our max test RPM, sorry we can’t go any faster guys),



Conclusions…
1) Yes alternative wheels with SMALL tooth tips and odd ball shapes will fire EDIS. (The soon to come O scope will help tremendously with these tests)
2) EDIS-8 is definitely more sensitive than EDIS-6 under the same conditions, (maybe the EDIS-8 rev issues that others have encountered is the result of the 36-1-VR combination? Sure would be nice see, physically measure, and test, the exact 36-1 wheel and VR that Ford uses on those V-8 applications that are achieving 7000+ RPM without issue?...)
3) Watching EDIS make 8 spark plugs, arc, spark, & “SNAP” while running at 5600 RPM is kinda cool to watch & listen to… LOL Even our wives thought the test bench was cool while it was operating.


That’s it for tonight guys. I’m sure we’ll come up with something else to try and test, so stay tuned…

[racingmini_mtl]

Paul,

Have you tried to reverse the cutter blade so that the ramp side and the steep side (I'm not sure how else to describe them) of the tooth are not seen in the same order? I mean if you tested with the steep side coming at the VR sensor and the ramp side going away from the sensor you could try the reverse (or the other way around).

I assume that the highly unsymmetrical teeth cause the zero crossing to behave differently that with the normal symmetrical teeth. That could influence how the EDIS module reacts.

Anyway, just a thought.

Jean

[BRAAPZ]

Paul,

Have you tried to reverse the cutter blade so that the ramp side and the steep side (I'm not sure how else to describe them) of the tooth are not seen in the same order? ......I assume that the highly unsymmetrical teeth cause the zero crossing to behave differently that with the normal symmetrical teeth. That could influence how the EDIS module reacts.

Anyway, just a thought.

Jean

Jean,
Thank you for catching that. We had previously discussed the blade orientation prior to using it and we both agreed that the retreating portion of the tooth should be sharp yet the advancing side of the tooth could be allowed to build, especially being as EDIS triggers off the break edge, but in our haste of testing, both of us missed the blade orientation.
Any how, after seeing your post, I immediately went right out, flipped the blade over and retested on the EDIS-8. Ran it right up to 56000 RPM and it was rock steady using the Escort VR. No more intermittent spark.
Though I still find it interesting given identical set ups, that the EDIS-6 didn’t seem to mind the blade orientation at 5600 RPM, yet the EDIS-8 struggled with the one orientation, i.e. EDIS-8 being more finicky, or sensitive if you will.
Sure wish we could test to higher RPM. I would like to perform some in-depth high RPM testing on the EDIS-8.

[mooseheadm5]

Wow, my boss and I were having this conversation on friday after work. We decided that a saw blade would work. If we could find one the right size, we could attach it to the balancer of an early Motronic BMW (one that normally reads the teeth at the flywheel) and not have to find a 60-2 wheel (these are not cheap for a big-6 because they were only available on 1988 on 3.5l motors.) Thanks for answering that question before I asked! Keep us posted on the 72-2 wheel. I'd be interested to see if a 72-2 could be made small enough to fit in place of the motronic distributor cap and rotor (no measurements at the moment, but I'll get back to you or send you something to test.
-P

[Karch]

Very cool!!! I actually thought of this about 6 weeks ago, maybe longer, while at Home Depot. I was thinking of a 36 tooth 7-1/4" circular saw blade.

Also, what about a chain sprocket off either a motorcycle or bicycle. I would think the former would be more suitable due to the thickness, but you never know?

Just a thought....good luck, and thanks, it's a blast to watch.

[lemans70sport]

Karch,
Just buy 2 blades and tack weld them together. I would want to modify the teeth so they are closer to square but that is a very cool and cheap alternative to having a custom wheel made.

[Karch]

Karch,
Just buy 2 blades and tack weld them together. I would want to modify the teeth so they are closer to square but that is a very cool and cheap alternative to having a custom wheel made.

My concern is the type of material the blades and teeth are made from.

I would want to get the ones that are not of the carbide variety, but that leaves hardened steel, which is not fun to machine out, drill out, or weld (I think, re weld).

I may give it a shot...get some cheap blades and try it.

[Anders Karlsson]

I´m using a motorbike chainsprocket on my MSnS-EDIS setup. I have machined the sprocket so that only the outer toothed ring is left. I attached the 36-1 wheel on the backside of the damper with 6 countersunk bolts after having oriented the wheel correctly aganist the VR. After that i machined the teeth a little bit so they became more flat and square.
The engine is an Opel Cam In Head 4 cyl (old stuff) and it runs alright on lower revs, at least up to 3000. It´s a newly rebuildt engine and I haven´t tuned i properly yet, because i have problems with the tach signal, but thats in another thread.
Hopefully the wheel will stay in place at higher revs, time will tell...

[Karch]

If I were to get a few 8" diameter wheels made up, could you test one out for us for an EDIS-8?

It probably will be a couple of weeks away, but you are doing tremendous work here, and I am hoping you can help us sort this out for a larger wheel.

Depending on price/outcome, I might even ask the shop to make more wheels.

I am leaning toward using 1018 CRS material, .250" thick, to keep it simple, and have them cut teeth that are .250" deep and equal dimensions on teeth and gaps.

Thoughts?

Thanks again, and please let me know if you will consider testing for us.

Karch

[BRAAPZ]

If I were to get a few 8" diameter wheels made up, could you test one out for us for an EDIS-8?
.............
Thanks again, and please let me know if you will consider testing for us.

Karch

Sure thing, we’ll be glad to test it for you. Hopefully we’ll have our “O” scope by that time as well. When you get that wheel built let us know. We'll deal with the shipping at that time.



Sorry there haven’t been any test bench updates lately. The Super-whiz-bang cylinder head project for one of my customers is back so until it’s completed…

[Karch]

Awesome, and Ill cover the shipping.

This, of course, is all dependent on the price I get for the wheels to be made.

Until then...

[Daryl]

Read this over as it was being posted and thought it was great. But like everyone else was dissapointed about the rev limit.

Reason I'm posting now is the previously mentioned 72-2 wheel.

If you had a 72-2 wheel couldn't you test to 11,200 rpm? (5600 x 2)

This could solve the EDIS rev limit mystery for all modules if it would work.

Edis - 4 @ 8400?
Edis - 6 @ ?????
Edis - 8 @ 6000?

Just an idea........

Thanks for the previous testing/posts.

Daryl

[BRAAPZ]

Yessiree. The EDIS would “think” it was running at 11,200 RPM even though the wheel would actually only be turning 5600 RPM when using a 72-2 tooth wheel with the missing teeth opposite each other on the wheel.
We do apologize for the lack of recent updates on the test bench as other projects pertaining to the race car and more importantly, customer projects, have taken center stage in the shop.
As things start to wind down a little, you can be sure to see some more EDIS test bench updates.

[rontyler]

Thought I'd update... I was originally talking about a 72 toothed cam trigger wheel. With the future looking pretty booked I decided to take the "easy way out", for now at least. I took the 510 damper and, becuase I'm not using the rear V-belt, machined 36-1 teeth in the rear shoulder. Pretty painless and, due to our testing, I'm quite confident it will function well. See pics...

Regards, rt

P.S. The VR is a modded Explorer sensor.

[rontyler]

All,

Finally wrapping things up... mounted coil and had some plug wires made up by Magnecor. Its currently running ignition only. Definitly smoother and runs out of breath at a higher rpm.

Regards, Ron