EDIT; TFI works!

brooksgnm · Post by **brooksgnm** » Fri May 05, 2006 3:27 pm

86 Mustang SVO 2.3l turbo
Home made adapter harness for plug & play w/ stock wiring.
v2.2 board
029q code just downloaded today
2.25 MT also just downloaded
Setup follows the sourceforge setup pages to a tee (hardware & software), except the 12+ lead for the "new" SPOUT circuit is branched off of the same 12+ lead as the Flyback board. I can't see why that would hurt anything?

LED17 - Spark Output A
LED18 - Warm Up
LED18 - Accel

Aside from no spark w/ SPOUT connected, everything works flawlessly. I've had this board assembled for a little over 1yr and used it in the past on a different 2.3t vehicle, at which time I also had problems getting TFI to function properly (occasional tach spike, backfire, and never got the advance table to function). At that time, I blamed it on the inverter circuit that was currently in use. MS went into storage for a while. Fast forward to now, with the new circuit I'm getting no spark w/ spout in. RPM in MT looks great, no spikes, very stable regardless whether spout is in / out. W/ spout unplugged engine runs fine. Although I have a bunch of tuning to do, everything seems to be functioning 100% including PWM idle valve. I tend to think I did something wrong with the TFI output circuit, although one thing I am unclear on- is the 2.3t TFI module CCD or fixed dwell? I have it set for 50% fixed dwell.

Here's a rundown of what I see when cranking w/ spout in.
Key on - MS powers up - fp primes - at end of fp prime I see very small tach jump - 1sec later a large tach jump to ~1500rpm.
Cranking - no tach reading(295rpm in MT) - key back to "on"(stop cranking) - fp turns off - same tach sequence as above follows.

Hopefully that can give somebody more knowledgeable a clue as to what I've done wrong.

I have poured over this thing and I've got to be doing something dumb

If you have any ideas (particularly megascott, you seem to be the go-to guy for TFI) please help me out!!

Thanks in advance, Mark

MegaScott · Post by **MegaScott** » Fri May 05, 2006 3:59 pm

The "New" TFI driver scheme is so simple how could it not work?

For LED17 you ran a wire from the top lead of the LED and to an output connection through the DB37 for the Spout right? On top of that you need a 100 to 330 ohm resistor from that wire connection to +12V.

I heard no mention of a pullup resistor in your post.

Maybe post your .msq and let's have a peek.

brooksgnm · Post by **brooksgnm** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:56 pm

Here is the .msq , I hope it's in there because I can't find anything wrong in the TFI circuit so far as I can tell. Yep, I have a 1/2 watt 330ohm resistor in there, everything is just as described all over the MSEFI board.

..and thanks for taking a look

MegaScott · Post by **MegaScott** » Fri May 05, 2006 9:05 pm

I didn't see anything that stood out in your .msq, you might want to put the trigger angle at 0 and see how that works, but it should work at 10 it will just skew your readings. Set your distributer at 10 dBTDC with Spout pulled. Your spark table looks a little funky, if that's how it likes to run, OK.

EDIT - Ok I see you made a harness, did you ground pin 16 of the EEC connector?

brooksgnm · Post by **brooksgnm** » Fri May 05, 2006 9:34 pm

No I did not ground pin 16. I noticed it when I was making the harness, so I checked if it grounds through the block, and it does. Has this caused a problem for others?

MegaScott · Post by **MegaScott** » Fri May 05, 2006 9:47 pm

brooksgnm wrote:No I did not ground pin 16. I noticed it when I was making the harness, so I checked if it grounds through the block, and it does. Has this caused a problem for others?

Pin 16 is a dedicated ground from the TFI module to the EEC, it may only be making intermittant connection to the shield, you need to ground this wire seperately.

brooksgnm · Post by **brooksgnm** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:06 pm

MegaScott wrote:
Pin 16 is a dedicated ground from the TFI module to the EEC, it may only be making intermittant connection to the shield, you need to ground this wire seperately.

I will do this and get back to you with results tomorrow. Thank you for your help so far.

brooksgnm · Post by **brooksgnm** » Sat May 06, 2006 7:29 am

Gave EEC pin16 a good ground. Same results as in 1st post, no spark w/ spout in.

So... I checked voltage at the spout connector w/ MS powered up (not running), I get ~1.75v. From what I can gather, it should be ~12v ..? So something is way wrong.

I must have something wrong with the output circuit. I don't know how, it's so simple? I verified that I have connection from the top post of led17 to x11 to pin 36 of the EEC connector. I have a +12v lead going to a 1/2w 330ohm resistor, then connected to the top post of led17.

One more observation, when cranking w/ spout in, led17 will (more-or-less) alternate between on / off after each cranking attempt. In other words-
Power up MS - led17 on
Crank, stop - led17 off
Crank, stop - led17 on
Crank, stop - led17 off
Etc..

While cranking, I do not see led17 blinking either, it's stays bright.

No scope here, sorry

Give me everything ya got!

MegaScott · Post by **MegaScott** » Sat May 06, 2006 10:38 am

It sounds like you have a cold solder joint or a solder bridge. Clean the board good and inspect the joints with a magnifier.

You have Spout going to the db36 pin 36 and X11? What's the reasoning behind that? you only need it to go to one or the other, depending on how your cable is wired. If you have your Spout wired to pin 25 then remove the db37-36 connection, and vice-versa.

What is your 12V source? you can get 12V all over the board, I like to use the banded end of D9 on the 2.2 board.

brooksgnm · Post by **brooksgnm** » Sat May 06, 2006 12:31 pm

Scott, please read my posts carefully. I apologise, I'm not very familiar with the correct terminology so I'm doing my best to describe everything as clearly as possible.

No I don't have spout going to two pins. Re-read my post, when I refer to pin 36 I'm talking about pin 36 of the EEC connector. I was just verifying that spout is taking the correct path from led17 to x11 to pin 25 on db37 and to pin 36 on EEC connector.

I've been messing with it on the stim, and what I'm seeing tells me it should be working on the car (I think)! With MS powered up on the stim (thru a 9v ac/dc converter) I have checked for spout output with a dvom, at the db37 soldier joints on the stim (IOW, the db37 output). What I'm doing is connecting one lead to pin 25 (spout) and the other lead to a ground plane pin.
MS powered up w/ stim - led17 on - ~1.25v on dvom
MS powered up w/ stim - led17 off - ~9.3v on dvom
MS powered up w/ stim - simulated 1500rpm - led17 blinking - 4.5v on dvom

This seems right to me..? Output is inverted from led17, and with spout @ 4.5v when running you would think it is @ 50% duty cycle..? The only thing that sticks out to me is that spout is never pulled all the way down to 0v, should it be?

I attached a picture of my MS so you can see how it is set up. +12v for spout is taken off the same +12v as the flyback board. the 330ohm resistor is right by led17, wrapped in electrical tape. The leg of the resistor is wrapped around led17 and soldiered. Then the wire going to x11 is connected to the resistor leg sticking off of led17. Don't mind the black wire w/ tape on the end, it's just the old ground for the inverter board, and I figured I'd keep it around for possible future use.

I will start looking the board over with a magnifier. Keep the suggestions coming.. I WILL get this thing to work right

MegaScott · Post by **MegaScott** » Sat May 06, 2006 1:02 pm

brooksgnm wrote:Scott, please read my posts carefully. I apologise, I'm not very familiar with the correct terminology so I'm doing my best to describe everything as clearly as possible.

No I don't have spout going to two pins. Re-read my post, when I refer to pin 36 I'm talking about pin 36 of the EEC connector. I was just verifying that spout is taking the correct path from led17 to x11 to pin 25 on db37 and to pin 36 on EEC connector.

I've been messing with it on the stim, and what I'm seeing tells me it should be working on the car (I think)! With MS powered up on the stim (thru a 9v ac/dc converter) I have checked for spout output with a dvom, at the db37 soldier joints on the stim (IOW, the db37 output). What I'm doing is connecting one lead to pin 25 (spout) and the other lead to a ground plane pin.
MS powered up w/ stim - led17 on - ~1.25v on dvom
MS powered up w/ stim - led17 off - ~9.3v on dvom
MS powered up w/ stim - simulated 1500rpm - led17 blinking - 4.5v on dvom

This seems right to me..? Output is inverted from led17, and with spout @ 4.5v when running you would think it is @ 50% duty cycle..? The only thing that sticks out to me is that spout is never pulled all the way down to 0v, should it be?

I attached a picture of my MS so you can see how it is set up. +12v for spout is taken off the same +12v as the flyback board. the 330ohm resistor is right by led17, wrapped in electrical tape. The leg of the resistor is wrapped around led17 and soldiered. Then the wire going to x11 is connected to the resistor leg sticking off of led17. Don't mind the black wire w/ tape on the end, it's just the old ground for the inverter board, and I figured I'd keep it around for possible future use.

I will start looking the board over with a magnifier. Keep the suggestions coming.. I WILL get this thing to work right

Sorry about that, I should have been more carefull, no problem.

I don't see any real problem with your setup except the 12v wire you are sending to the flyback could be a little small, that could be putting spikes on the Spout. (look at the middle of the brown wire like a resistor divider).

With LED17 turned off you should see a solid 12V at the Spout.

Is the TIP-120 and screw insulated?

brooksgnm · Post by **brooksgnm** » Sat May 06, 2006 4:00 pm

Okay I've done a little more fiddling..

I put the MS back in the car and checked spout voltage.
W/ led17 on, spout voltage is ~1.75v. <-- Is this normal?
W/ led17 off, spout voltage is ~12v.

In an above post I mention how led17 will stay on / off alternately after cranking, that is how I was able to check spout voltage in the two different states.

This is good, to me this verifies that the spout circuit is working correctly, would you agree? If so, that means the problem has to be in the software / firmware. I read the thread where a 2.3t sandrail guy had a problem with a corrupted .s19, do you think that is a possibility here?

In particular, I'm concerned the fact that I burned everything on to CD in order to load it to my laptop, then from my laptop loaded the .s19. Would this increase the possibility of corruption? Should I try to load the .s19 directly from my PC?

I looked over the board very closely with a magnifying glass, but didn't see a single bad soldier joint. The TIP-120 screw is metal not plastic, though I do have an insulator between the board and TIP-120. The idle valve is working correctly, as is everything else aside from spark, so I doubt it presents a problem.

I did get one large backfire the last time I cranked it, although still no tach movement during cranking, just the jumps after cranking as described as above.

Lemme know what'cha think!

MegaScott · Post by **MegaScott** » Sun May 07, 2006 12:15 am

I certainly would not rule out the possibility you might have got a burn, it wouldn't hurt to try a reflash.

Have you tried disconnecting the Spout an see if your tach returns? I think at his point the input is suspect with no tach on cranking, do you mean no tach in Megatune?

brooksgnm · Post by **brooksgnm** » Sun May 07, 2006 6:01 am

Hahahah... it's so easy to get mixed up with all this!

I always have very stable tach in megatune, whether spout is in or out. With spout in I see a steady rise and then a solid 295-305 rpm(cranking). With spout out I see whatever rpm the engine is running, very solid, no spikes or drops.

The car's tachometer is what I'm referring to with the spikes. With the spout in I get no tach action whatsoever (0 rpm cranking) and the spikes after cranking as described above. With the spout out the tach works just fine, as you would expect.

You know, I forgot about it until now but I did increase the resistance of D8 & R10 from recommended. Last year when I was fooling with MS, increasing them helped with the spikes and backfires (it was running w/ spout then - just not right). I will check what the resistance values are, I forget. If memory serves, those two are both on the input side, is that correct?

My biggest question is- If MS is getting a solid rpm input, is that a good indication that it should give a solid output? OR, can changing the resistance on the input side have an effect on the output side?

Thanks for your help so far, I feel like we're atleast on the right track!

brooksgnm · Post by **brooksgnm** » Sun May 07, 2006 9:13 am

Holy crap I think I might have fixed it!

D8 & R10 were 2.7k and 1k so I took out the 2.7k and replaced it with 1k. So both are now 1k.

It fired right up w/ spout in! I just checked timing advance and that appears to be working as well!

I've got more testing to do and still a few weeks before I can drive the car (building C4 for it) but for now it appears that all is well!

I will keep you updated Scott, thanks for all your help!

MegaScott · Post by **MegaScott** » Sun May 07, 2006 10:41 am

About a year ago When testing the "new" Spout driver I found the input resistance value to be critical. Too much resistance and it won't start, too little resistance and you have problems at high RPM, The optimum values I found were as recommended, from 1.3k to 2.5k total resistance. On my TFI installs I jumper D8 and a 2K resistor is installed in R10.

Turns out there is a definite relationship between the loading of PIP and the Spout when hooked up, more load (less Megasquirt input resistance) and it won't work, Not enough load (too much resistance) and you get tach spikes.

brooksgnm · Post by **brooksgnm** » Sun May 07, 2006 5:23 pm

Well everything seems to be A-OK. I seem to get maybe a slight miss at idle, although I don't plan to mess with the resistance value any further until I can start driving it and see how it acts then. I spent some time with the VE table and man does it ever rev clean and FAST. It sounds way better than it ever did on the EEC.

I will give another update when I start driving / tuning the car. Thanks so much for the help Scott!

Mark