MSnS w/ COP.... so confusing!!!

s2je77 · Post by **s2je77** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:42 pm

i'm sorry for asking this again.... i know it's been thrown around the forum a lot!!! but i can't seem to find a thread that can clear things up for me....

i have MS controlling my fuel, and it's nearly perfect...
i would now like to have MS control the ignition too... and i'm interested in the Coil on Plug setup....

i know that to set it up, i'm suppose to follow the instructions on this page http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra ... wheel.html, but most of it is jibberish to me....

and somewhere in the forum... some ppl are saying u need 1 VR sensor and wheel, some say you need 2.... and others say you need hall sensors....
which is correct? what else will i be needing?
and on the PCB 3.0, what do i have to change? there are several changes on the page mentioned above... and i don't know which one applies to me.... some people say you need 2 VB921 for 4cyl.... and other say you need 4....

and the wasted spark thing.... i means the sparkplug sparks, but there's nothing in the cylinder for it to ignite... right?
what's the benefit/draw back to having wasted spark?
does this HAVE to happen with the COP setup? or is there a way to control it so it only sparks when it has to?

i'm so confused!!!
thank you

jeff

Post by **jsmcortina** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:50 am

Configuring a trigger wheel and setting up wasted spark is far more complex tha a fuel-only setup. Coil on plug is probably as hard as it gets with today's Megasquirt installs. If all of the wheel decoder page is "jibberish" then you may be best avoiding it.

However,
Wasted spark requires a crank signal. This will most usually be a VR sensor pointing at a 36-1 or 60-2 wheel. The V3 board has the required circuit to interface to this VR sensor. Wasted spark uses double ended coils and needs 2 VB921 for a 4 cylinder.

Coil on plug requires a crank signal AND a cam signal. If this cam signal is from a hall sensor you can likely wire it straight in. If it uses another VR sensor then you need to build a second VR interface (conditioner) circuit. Coil on plug uses one coil per plug and needs 4 VB921 on a 4 cylinder.

EDIS can be an easier install if you find mechanical work easier than electronics - it requires you to fit a 36-1 wheel and sensor but the soldering is minimal.

James

s2je77 · Post by **s2je77** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:12 am

well... it's not EXACTLY jibberish.... but there are so much in there... i don't know which i need and which i don't....

according to #52 on http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/V3assemble.htm#output, i'm only suppose to use either VR or Hall ... right? not both.....

the schematic that i should use is

and

right?

what does it mean to "use another connector as shown on the main page?"

thanks for the help!
jeff

boost junkie · Post by **boost junkie** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:23 am

s2je77 wrote:according to #52 on http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/V3assemble.htm#output, i'm only suppose to use either VR or Hall ... right? not both.....

Correct. It's one or the other.

what does it mean to "use another connector as shown on the main page?"

At the bottom of the main page ( http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/ ) it explains how to use a 2nd DB25 connector for the MSnS-E outputs.

s2je77 · Post by **s2je77** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:57 am

so i CANNOT have one wheel with VR and another wheel with HALL
but i can have 2 hall sensors @ the same time... right??

do u mean this diagram for the db25?

the pin #s are just guidelines right?
so tach out can be # 2 instead of 3... right?

where would i cut the hole in the case? do ALL the electronics go in the proto. area?

Post by **jsmcortina** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:27 am

The DB25 picture is an example only, you can choose to use it exactly the same or do something totally different.

Did you see the general layout near the top of the wheel decoder page below the text "Example setup for COP" with this picture:

There is no restriction on whether you use hall or VR sensors. They are different methods of sending a signal to the processor.

James

s2je77 · Post by **s2je77** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:54 am

jsmcortina wrote: no restriction on whether you use hall or VR sensors

but the PCB can't accept hall and VR @ the same time right?
and if i don't want to make the conditioner circuit... then i'll have to use 2 hall sensors ... right? with the second trigger going to JS8

and i would put the other 3 VB921 in the prototype area.... but i still don't see how the db25 will connect to the pcb.... will i have to make n other case & pcb for it?

thank you
jeff[/img]

boost junkie · Post by **boost junkie** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:08 am

You can use both circuits. They are totally isolated.

Post by **jsmcortina** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:19 am

The V3 board already has one VR circuit. So you could use VR for the crank and hall for the Cam.
The DB25 connects however you want it to - it is DIY so you are doing the wiring.

Many people make a "double-decker" heatsink or mount the VB921 to the case. No need for a PCB just for them.

James

s2je77 · Post by **s2je77** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:25 am

boost junkie wrote:You can use both circuits. They are totally isolated.

but before (a few posts ago) it's one or the other.....
sorry..... i'm starting to get lost again....

milosch01 · Post by **milosch01** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:27 am

For what it's worth, on my 3-coil wasted spark setup I used a seperate 3 pin connector for the driver outputs to the coils and mounted the extra transistors on the case (MS 2.2). I haven't had them get warm so it works for me.

superchargingmachine · Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:44 am

s2je77

I have been lurking following this thread. This is just my opinion but I think you might want to start on a simpler setup than COP to learn how MS works. Being that this is all DIY and an extended version of the basic MS you will have many choices for inputs, outputs and settings and the way you apply those things really depends on your preference and application. Please don't take this as a personal slam. The goal of MS is learnig EFI and having some fun doing it and if your not successful it won't be any fun.

subie4me · Post by **subie4me** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:59 am

If you want to use the cop's without the added complexity of a second vr circuit, try this. First,check that your cop's only have two wires going to them. Three wires usually means that the driver is built in. If you have the two wire version, wire pairs in series for wasted spark, and drive them with the vb921's. This gives a hot enough spark to run a 2 liter subaru @ 20lbs of boost. If you are lucky and have the three wire cop's, them you don't even need the vb921's. You can drive them from the led's

s2je77 · Post by **s2je77** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:53 pm

superchargingmachine wrote:if your not successful it won't be any fun

i agree... but i have $200 worth of COP sitting in my garage from n other car.... and i didn't wanna waste it....
i have looked into the edis and coil packs.... i mean the edis is easy enough... cuz the MSnS site even has step by step instructions for it....
but then... it takes me back to what i should do with the COPs ... and i have no clue where i can find a ford to get those stuff out off....

and even if i don't do the COPs for this car (golf) i want to give it a shot for my 944 that's waiting to be MSed....

thanks
jeff

superchargingmachine · Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:43 pm

What is in the Golf now? Just a thought maybe just adapt MS to run fuel or fuel and ignition on whatever stock system is in the Golf. You could use a distributor or waste spark system(coil paks) or whatever and keep the COP for the 944.

BTW - if you want the EDIS stuff I can get it for you from the pick and pull for $50 or less. Seems like I gave about $30 for mine but it has been a while.

But, you may not need it if you already have a distributor.

Once you have done one car I think everything will be clear. That will make it a lot easier to step up to a system with more features and complexity.

ptegler · Post by **ptegler** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:51 pm

I don't know why everyone is saying cop is a pain. If you feel a single coil firing each plug has some advantage over one coil firing two plugs (wasted spark) consider simply wiring two cop coils as one and run the tried and true wasted spark firing setup.

Personally, the idea of a spark killing off what little residue fuel during the exhaust stroke seems like a good environmental advantage to me. I'm using an Oldsmobile wasted spark coil pack with three VB921's (wired into the bottom of the pack with HCT125 as drivers in the MS box as suggested by Bruce) to fire my fuel injected 2 liter 6 cylinder stuffed into my Triumph Spitfire. I can fire off a rock solid spark across a 0.5" gap at 6 krpm without any problems. So two plugs in series with only a .040 gap is no biggie.
http://www.teglerizer.com/triumphstuff/spit6whiteyFI/spit6whiteyFI_fullengine1.html

Paul Tegler
ptegler@cablespeed.com (ptegler@cablespeed.com)
www.teglerizer.com

Posted by email.

subie4me · Post by **subie4me** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:59 pm

You can also use edis to drive cop's wired in series for wasted spark.

superchargingmachine · Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:08 am

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against COP. I was saying that a dual trigger MSnS-E setup may not be the easiest project to start with.

Post by **jsmcortina** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:41 am

superchargingmachine wrote:Don't get me wrong. I'm not against COP. I was saying that a dual trigger MSnS-E setup may not be the easiest project to start with.

I totally agree, unless you REALLY understand exactly how this works then dual trigger COP is about as hard as it gets.
Hey, even I couldn't get my V8 wasted spark setup to work initially - and I wrote the code !!

It is very important for the user/installer to understand their capabilities and not to go too far. A little stretch can be good, but too far results in head banging against wall and lots of frustration.

James