Spark control basic Q and Toyota dizzy Q

coyoteboy · Post by **coyoteboy** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:16 pm

On an MS1 v2.2 board, to trigger a 3sgte ESA ignitor directly, what mod do i need to do. I'm using FIdle to do my 3 wire pwmidle so i cant use that. I have read several conflicting details about whether i should be shorting LEDs or not, adding 5v/1K pullups or not. I give in. When this is finished i am going to document the whole bloody lot so no-one else has to go through it! Explanation with diagrams helps my mechanical mind teach my electronic one, if poss!

Also, in my dizzy I have a 2 tooth and a 24 tooth VR IIRC. the two-tooth gives NE signals (twice per cam rotation, so 4 per cycle). If this gives trigger points at each event, whats the need for the 24 tooth extra info?
I think i know but to save embarrassing myself I'll keep schtum until someone proves my thoughts wrong or right! My initial thoughts were that if the MS knows each event position/time it can interpolate spark angles fine so why have extra info?

Cheers
J

thechuckster · Post by **thechuckster** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:34 pm

you're forgetting that the dizzi is running at half crank speed so the each opposing teeth are 1 pulse per 2 crank revolutions.

You should get timing data from the 24 tooth wheel by removing 2 opposing teeth - producing a 12-1 wheel.

I cant remember if the ESA ignitor is a dumb or smart unit - but you would be best to use LED17 as your spark singal and invert the output.

I am using a VR sensor out of an old 22RE engine, feeding that thru an LM1815 to condition my tirgger signal. Once shielded correctly, it works fine.

What you'd be doing is: Wheel decoding driving a single coil.

To help wire up the stock ignitor, identify your coil/ignitor from this handy diagram from microtech (see two options at bottom left of page).

For flexibility of coil setups, i dumped my toyota ignitor and went to VB9s1s to drive coil(s).

folks converting 7MGE and 4AGE to MSefi are doing similar things so you'll probably find similar conversions here somewhere.

cheers and good luck,
Charles.

coyoteboy · Post by **coyoteboy** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:39 am

I cant be grinding teeth off im afraid, it needs to run a standard ECU in times of trouble so im having to stick with stock sensors (except AFM which stays in the boot with the old ECU). My current plans are to run two VRs and run the denso 2nd trigger setup but id prefer to simplify it. Youre right about the CAS running at half the speed of the crank - i was thinking the other way round in my late-night-stupidity. d***. I will have to run the dual VR then.

As for LED17 and inverted output - am i just jumpering the LED out and taking a flying wire to my IGT pin then, setting the options to inverted output in MT?

Thanks for that link, really handy - now i know my dwell times! Mines the bottom left (late model toyota).
J

thechuckster · Post by **thechuckster** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:27 pm

I'm guessing that the ignitor needs an inverted out put.

i just soldered a wire on the underside of the resistor tail as per the diagram on the page - i never jumper'd or cut-out the LED.

You should talk to someone like <spark> or similar to fabricate some kind of adaptor board so you dont have to touch the factory loom.

There's someone Sydney (Oz) based - sorry name eludes me at moment - who's done a few installs like what you're doing, and Karl Skewes (spell?) in New Zealand is also quite knowledgable of this.

cheers,
Charles.

coyoteboy · Post by **coyoteboy** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:39 pm

I'll go with inverted then. I think i have it all sorted now, the cost of a one-off loom adapter wouldnt be do-able for me and i had a spare ECU knocking - hence its been stripped and it the current MS incarnation. Let me grab a photo...
http://www.jbuckle.homeip.net/images/nearlydone.jpg

As you can see its fairly tightly packed

J[/url]

Post by **jsmcortina** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:56 am

No need to remove teeth. Did you read the "2nd trigger" wheel decoder page linked of the main wheel decoder page? This describes ways that have been used with the 24/2 CAS without any butchery.

James

coyoteboy · Post by **coyoteboy** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:21 am

Yup, read it a few times - i was fairly happy i was going to use the dual VR setup (hence buying an *error board, although I had drawn my own up i couldnt compact it enough to fit in my case!) but its the much simpler details that the documentation tends to gloss over IMO, and its those that blow components. Maybe im just looking for too much concrete info on a subject thats fairly trial and error but in all the text/forum posts you get people saying "use the 2nd trigger setup with your two VRs" and when you go to the pages the info basically says "use the two VRs, this is what your signals should look like" but no-one says "for a toyota dual wheel dizzy you'll be wanting G1 and G2 tied together each through their own 220ohm resistor, and into the positive size of VR2's input, with the NE pin going to VR1 input".

Its all because it has to be very general, i know, but when risking my work so far i like to know i have all bases covered correctly! Sorry if I'm asking the obvious to you guys

I'll do my best to rectify this when ive finally got mine running - I'll write up a full how-to for 3sg(t)e installation, even if just for my own amusement.

I'm not looking forward to determining the 2nd trigger dialog box parameters

J

Post by **jsmcortina** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:14 am

Your requests aren't unreasonable, you have read the page.
I have never even touched a 24/2 setup so am not able to easily document it.

James

coyoteboy · Post by **coyoteboy** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:25 am

Thats fair enough, im sorry - i wasnt aiming a criticism at yourself, more bemused and amused by the lack of detail on the small stuff that has me in such a confusion - i just hate feeling like an idiot

Theres a few people on here who have used the 24/2 setup but they all gloss over it very quickly unless you PM them and I hate to pester people directly!

J

lmr052 · Post by **lmr052** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:20 am

thechuckster wrote:There's someone Sydney (Oz) based - sorry name eludes me at moment - who's done a few installs like what you're doing

Hmmm... that may be me.... I have been laying low - other activities are taking up my time.

James, I think I have sent you all my documentation some time ago on my 3SGE install, including my MSQ and INC files that should help with the 2nd input settings. Let me know if I need to resend them.

I strongly suggest getting a spare distributor for bench testing with the stim. I added in a pot for the OEM MAP sensor as my set up uses the stock MAP, not the MAF.

Sorry if the online 2nd trigger documentation is not up to scratch - I tried to cover off the bits that I thought were needed but there may be an assumed level of knowledge so please feel free to improve it.

Regards, Richard

Post by **jsmcortina** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:37 am

If your documentation isn't on the MS1/Extra website then a resend and a kick up my behind are in order.
Not much use me asking for docs and then not using them.

cheers

James

thechuckster · Post by **thechuckster** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:50 am

i'll also hang my butt out for kicking - i erroneously thought the dual trigger setup was for multiple coil packs only - hence my enthusiasm for butchery of the toyota 24 tooth wheel.

LMR: glad to see you're still around!

cheers,
Charles.

lmr052 · Post by **lmr052** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:30 pm

jsmcortina wrote:If your documentation isn't on the MS1/Extra website then a resend and a kick up my behind are in order.

No kicks necessary... The docs I have sent to others are specific to my install including my OEM ECU pinouts. They are not generic MS and hence not really appropriate for the website.

Regards, Richard

coyoteboy · Post by **coyoteboy** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:06 am

I've not managed to get hold of a second dizzy for testing though my stim has seen much use

. I have managed to find your msq (I backed it up to my server when it started having drive problems and thought Id lost it - thanks). Its for 025l though, which doesnt seem to agree with any of the megatune configs I can find - I'll have to search out the INIs for MT for that era, I can see the settings though, providing the incompatible MT inis havent tweaked them - we will soon find out lol.

Cheers
J

coyoteboy · Post by **coyoteboy** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:01 pm

Right, using a combination of Richards MSQ settings and my own fiddling I've found that the spark output shouldnt be inverted and needs the 5v pullup. I ran inverted for 5-6 seconds and felt the ignitor get very hot very fast LOL.

Now i just need to get the idle control sorted and the spark table roughly right after i check the base timing.

SBDJ · Post by **SBDJ** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:20 am

lmr052 wrote:No kicks necessary... The docs I have sent to others are specific to my install including my OEM ECU pinouts. They are not generic MS and hence not really appropriate for the website.

I've still got all your old docs and MSQ files as well Richard if you or either James need anything from them. I've also got all my documentation that I've made from my various 3S-GTE experimentations

James (jsmcortina) - if you ever want a stock 3S-GTE distributor (24 + 2) to play with on the bench, I've got a spare complete with VR sensors. Or I can just bring you my car to map

coyoteboy · Post by **coyoteboy** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:39 am

Right. Well i spent the entire morning trying to sort this. Its more or less sorted now from what i can see.

I used:
11,0,5,0 on the second trigger and set the trigger point to 68 IIRC. This seemed to set it bang on 10 degrees on mine. I still notice some fluctuation of timing on revs but I've put that down to cam-belt stretch - it moves 1-2 degrees one way on accel (though at steady revs at any point its correct give or take a degree) and on decel it shifts the other way. by the same amount. I still seem to get a slight stumble every now and then but im not sure why, or how to diagnose it. Ive logged while it was doing it.

I tried a basic spark table and it does seem to follow it very well.

I also tried using the 24 and 25 style decoders and it made no difference that i can see.

Now i just have to faff and tune the ignition maps so i can use it again lol. Fortunely ive plug-n-play'd it with a stock ECU so if i have problems the AFM and ECU are in the boot ready to take over

Just dont want to mash the engine before i start lol.

SBDJ · Post by **SBDJ** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:03 am

Are the stumbles always out the same RPM? If so, it's probably worth scoping the output of each conditioner (you can just use a PC with a soundcard

) to check it's not crosstalk or otherwise noise related...

coyoteboy · Post by **coyoteboy** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:05 am

Stumbles are fairly random around idle (750rpm ish) and im not sure yet if its due to bad timing, fuelling or what, but it used to do it when it was fuel-only too. Scoped the NE wheel and it seems to be dot on (got a digi scope) but I cant seem to get any signal from the G1G2 conditioner but since it does actually run im not sure why. Not tweaked the settings on the scope just yet (digi scope brought home from work).

J

SBDJ · Post by **SBDJ** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:15 am

Strange that, the same level settings for me usually picks up the output from both VR sensors

However since it was doing it on fuel only, you're right, it has to be injector setup, mapping, encrichments or the like. I'd probably disable EGO correction and acceleration enhancements and start examing the fuelling setup...