Ford EEC-V to MegaSquirt adaptor board, I need your input.

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pdfbt40
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Post by pdfbt40 »

Hi Scott,

Totally understand your point of view. Will probably end up doing a splice-in - disconnect on the main harness. Piggy back adapter would need to have a PCB mounted socket (or flying lead made from original harness)for the retained EEC-V.

With the V3 and MSnS extra, I think everything is inside the megaSquirt now with virtually no need for circuits on the adapter. Possibly the only exception being the VR Crank sensor which would need splitting.

OK, at least I know to look at older Fords if I need connectors.

I am working on the schedule of the EEC-V pin-outs, which I'll still need. The Ford TIS diagrams are system based, so tracking all the PCM connections is quite involved. :(

Martin
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Post by MegaScott »

Alrighty then.

I am just now designing a new EEC-V board.

I have a few Ideas I want to present..

1. Add a generic 40 pin socket that enables an on-board MS2 or Tech arts CPU module. You can wire this up to drive the aux circuits and aux inputs, also CAN to the Megasquirt so you can have a transmission controller. Also for those car with the dead ned fuel systems you could use this to drive the fuel pump driver module. Or use the CAN interface to drive your OEM gauge pod.

2. To support the above processor boards, some new circuits need to be added. Voltage conditioning/regulator, temperature input bias, input conditioning and a few more outputs.

3. Removal of the Knock circuit.

4. Possible addition of a dual VR sensor circuit, replaces the existing easy VR circuit.

5. Changes to the board ground strategy, four layer?

6. Add the option to use a "bare" Microsquirt piggyback.

7. Baro sensor?

These are just proposed changes, one way or another a second processor option is going to make it on the board. The Technological Arts NCmax12 board is essentially a GPIO processor board in a module the size of a MS2. Except more I/O is available to drive more loads. Also the NCmax12 board has RS232, CAN, and voltage regulator on board. A small signal conditioner is all that is needed to use this as a GPIO processor using 12Vdc. An MS2 module, or other generic CPU module can be used in the socket as well. Whatever you want. A 5v regulator will be provided and you can jumper in all the I/O on the board, or add additional daughterboards for added I/O capability.

Group think?
Pulseplate
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Post by Pulseplate »

Hello Scott, its been a while i visited here i been reading up on your boards and i would really like to try one out, i have a few questions or clarifications so forgive me if im being dumb or missed something.

Is your adapter board an interface between stock ecu and ms, i would like MS to control engine entirely from idle, cold starting, everything but i dont want the stock ecu having a fit lighting up the dash with errors! How does MS function when piggy back of stock ecu what i mean is how does it know what to control and what not too does it share signals? or block them one way?

I want to piggy back MS Extra of my Ford, where would your adapter board fit inside the MS case or Ford ecu case?

Would i need to hack up my looms, splice and make a mess to fit it in, i may need to return the car back to standard for certain events.

Could your adapter board be used with other ecu's to piggy back onto stock ecu, like other versions of megasquirt?

How do i get my mitts on your lovely boards please?
MegaScott
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Post by MegaScott »

I have no more boards for EEC-V, Read the post above, I am designing a new board for EEC-V that will enable a few more options for the Megasquirt savvy, I am asking YOU if these options are acceptable? Then YOU come back with "yes this is ok, but this is not, or this should be changed". NOT a whole list of new questions for me to answer. You can PM me this type of question and I could answer you personally.

OK

The board is not specifically designed to piggyback to your stock ECU, in fact the EEC-V adaptor only works to replace your stock EEC, this should only be done on an off road car, or in an area of the world where your modifications are allowed by law.

The original adaptor board works to make any Megasquirt plug and play for engine functions only, the new board I am proposing has the capability to add an aux processor that you can use for GPIO or anything you want if you are a C programmer.

Some of the early implementations of EEC-V are engine only with few interaction with the rest of the car, newer implemantations share a data bus with the other sytems such as ABS, Airbags, and even the Sound system. Naturally the older EEC-V are easier to make plug and play, for the later systems you would have to learn how the Ford Data bus talks to the rest of the car so that some of those functions can be retained, not likely though, unless you are a programmer that wants to learn about CAN bus control systems.

For piggyback you don't need my board, you just splice into the correct signals, sharing or intercepting signals as required. you don't need an adaptor board to do this, just intimate knowledge of how your car works, and how Megasquirt works, so that you may marry them together.

That said, If you PM me the year and model of your car I could answer your questions a whole lot better.
Pulseplate
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Post by Pulseplate »

My apologies i misunderstood what your boards are for and reading back im a bit late too :oops:
MegaScott
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Post by MegaScott »

Pulseplate wrote:My apologies i misunderstood what your boards are for and reading back im a bit late too :oops:
Sorry about being so rash, I could go back and delete the old post's, or start the thread over again, since I don't have any more free boards.

The new board will probably have about 10 or so Beta boards to give away to people that have an actual use for them, after a brief beta period I will then put them up on my web site sales page. Watch this space for news as it develops.
pdfbt40
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Post by pdfbt40 »

Hi Scott,

Topic seems a bit quiet, so although my plan is to replace EEC-V in standard vehicles, probably only for engine management, I thought I'd post a few thoughts from this side of the pond (unfortunately not necessarily in a logical order :oops: ).

As you know, in Europe we have both 60 pin and 104 pin EEC-V PCM. The 60 pin used on manual (stick shift) transmission, the 104 pin for auto transmission or forced induction (the RS Focus (turbo'd)). However not a firm rule as 'Gen 1' all seem to be 104 pin!

Probably not a problem if pads & links are used, but 'Gen 1' without PATS, and 'Gen 2' with PATS use different pins for fuel injectors and fuel pump relay.

Dual VR inputs sounds good. Presumably, with more drivers, full sequential injection as well as individual COP. However, if as you say, with MS2 people want to control the auto transmission, wont they need an input of output shaftspeed, which on the auto transmission is, I think, a VR sensor rather than the Hall effect one in manual boxes.

Whilst on speed, on 'Gen 2' EEC-V, the sensor signal goes only to the PCM. Most modules that need speed use the data highway, though cruise control and radios still receive a pulse signal from the PCM. Minor adjustments for calibration can be done (at a price :( ) to compensate for wheel/tyre or FD changes by a Ford dealer. However major changes, such as gearbox swaps, can also run into a 'generation' problem with pulse frequency changes of ~x3 !

Whilst there are several products for frequency cheating, it would be 'nice' if there was one on the adaptor board :lol:

Another observation is that even on MY2004 Focus, there is no documented CAN interconnection. There is a K-Line interconnection for ABS, Airbag, etc. modules, but the only data connection to the instrument cluster is the Ford SCP. I don't understand it fully, but it is possible to monitor that using a PWM reader (ELM320, etc. or ScanGauge II, etc.). How does this fit with using MSII, etc running the instruments.

Another function handled on the later EEC-V, was regulation of the alternator, rather than an internal controller. Could this be handled by MS or another on-board processor? Or does an 'older' self regulating alternator have to be substituted.

..and finally (?), although I don't have one, FI engines. Only 2,500 RS Focus were built, so I don't think many will go MegaSquirt, but a few observations, just to confirm similarity to American EEC-V if they've been used in FI installations.

On board baro is interesting, but the RS Focus does have a BAP as well as MAP sensor. Also of course a boost control valve. Also a relay output for a chargecooler (water/air) circulation pump. Its also used as an interlock for the starter button in the centre consul.

So, I don't know if any of that rambling is relevant....I'm waiting for a 104 pin board with lots of pads, and I'll find the space for that, MS & the EEC-V (maybe just for PATS :oops: !).

Cheers

Martin
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Post by MegaScott »

Thanks for the nice responce, this is the kind of feedback I need.....
pdfbt40 wrote:Hi Scott,

Topic seems a bit quiet, so although my plan is to replace EEC-V in standard vehicles, probably only for engine management, I thought I'd post a few thoughts from this side of the pond (unfortunately not necessarily in a logical order :oops: ).

As you know, in Europe we have both 60 pin and 104 pin EEC-V PCM. The 60 pin used on manual (stick shift) transmission, the 104 pin for auto transmission or forced induction (the RS Focus (turbo'd)). However not a firm rule as 'Gen 1' all seem to be 104 pin!
Yeah it's a bit to follow, but I have a handle on it. The EEC-IV board I sell now does work with the 60pin EEC-V, though some of the more advanced controls are not supported, like the dead ended fuel system, and the alternator regulator.
Probably not a problem if pads & links are used, but 'Gen 1' without PATS, and 'Gen 2' with PATS use different pins for fuel injectors and fuel pump relay.
PATS is supported through a series of cut points designed to be cut and bypassed to another pad.
Dual VR inputs sounds good. Presumably, with more drivers, full sequential injection as well as individual COP. However, if as you say, with MS2 people want to control the auto transmission, wont they need an input of output shaftspeed, which on the auto transmission is, I think, a VR sensor rather than the Hall effect one in manual boxes.
The idea is that the auto trans will be supported through the circuits on the adaptor board, any engine functions will be supported on the Megasquirt or addon Microsquirt daugterboard. Additional drivers may be available to drive COP or sequential, but those will be supported by the soon to be released Megaroutersequencerboard, which can be hard wired to the adaptor board.
Whilst on speed, on 'Gen 2' EEC-V, the sensor signal goes only to the PCM. Most modules that need speed use the data highway, though cruise control and radios still receive a pulse signal from the PCM. Minor adjustments for calibration can be done (at a price :( ) to compensate for wheel/tyre or FD changes by a Ford dealer. However major changes, such as gearbox swaps, can also run into a 'generation' problem with pulse frequency changes of ~x3 !
Whilst there are several products for frequency cheating, it would be 'nice' if there was one on the adaptor board :lol:
So your saying that a programmable frequency counter/generator needs to be added for these VSS functions?
Another observation is that even on MY2004 Focus, there is no documented CAN interconnection. There is a K-Line interconnection for ABS, Airbag, etc. modules, but the only data connection to the instrument cluster is the Ford SCP. I don't understand it fully, but it is possible to monitor that using a PWM reader (ELM320, etc. or ScanGauge II, etc.). How does this fit with using MSII, etc running the instruments.


Ford SCP is the same as J1850 PWM, there are transciever chips for this that make it easy to interface a microcontroller to the bus, software would have to be written to send variables out the second serial connection.
Another function handled on the later EEC-V, was regulation of the alternator, rather than an internal controller. Could this be handled by MS or another on-board processor? Or does an 'older' self regulating alternator have to be substituted.
I would have to look into how ford does the regulating now, a regulator is not that complicated of a circuit, though I'm not sure if this is car specific based on alternator size?
..and finally (?), although I don't have one, FI engines. Only 2,500 RS Focus were built, so I don't think many will go MegaSquirt, but a few observations, just to confirm similarity to American EEC-V if they've been used in FI installations.
FI? Not sure what this is?
On board baro is interesting, but the RS Focus does have a BAP as well as MAP sensor. Also of course a boost control valve. Also a relay output for a chargecooler (water/air) circulation pump. Its also used as an interlock for the starter button in the centre consul.
The added baro sensor would take place of the BAP, as the pwm signal sent by the Ford BAP is not directly readable by the Megasquirt, Ditto with the onboard MAP, Megasquirt has that already. Additional output drivers are available for driving relays to turn on stuff like fans, charge coolers..etc.
So, I don't know if any of that rambling is relevant....I'm waiting for a 104 pin board with lots of pads, and I'll find the space for that, MS & the EEC-V (maybe just for PATS :oops: !).

Cheers

Martin
The idea is to replace your EEC-V but in some cases that won't be very easy, software would have to be written for the additional processor to run the gauge pod, plus the added circuits for driving alll the car specific stuff.

My biggest problem is that I don't own any of these cars, all my cars are older than 1997, which my 1997 car has 104pin EEC-V but the implementation is very simple still with the analog dash and standard return style fuel system.

My goal though is to put out functional hardware, and some smart cookie can do the programming, or, if I buy a newer car I will have to get it working.

The tranny and Microsquirt interface will eventually make it into a new EEC-IV adaptor board, which should open up that board for use as a standalone, without having to add a Megasquirt and cable.
pdfbt40
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Post by pdfbt40 »

Hi Scott,

Sorry, been a busy with some mods on one of my cars.....

First I'll clarify some of the previous points.
So your saying that a programmable frequency counter/generator needs to be added for these VSS functions?
More another 'nice to have' for retaining the Ford instruments. Changes in wheel/tyre sizes, or as I've just done some gearbox swaps as I said. The Focus SVT into 'normal' Focus as I just did needed a correction factor of minus 70.8% on the VSS frequency.
I would have to look into how ford does the regulating now, a regulator is not that complicated of a circuit, though I'm not sure if this is car specific based on alternator size?
Sorry I don't know either. I believe the EEC-V provides the regulated rotor voltage 'normally' supplied from the internal regulator. There is also what I pressume is a return signal for the charge indicator light. In older systems this was just the rotor excitation voltage, with the light between that and the battery 'hot' side.

The Ford publicity claims the alternator is 'intelligent'. Reading further it implies that heavy charge loads are reduced by the EEC-V at low engine power such as idle with A/C or PAS demands.

As this implies, all these loads are part of the idle control algorithms in the EEC-V. Here in the UK, when aftermarket ECUs are added, the EEC-V is often left connected for idle control as well as auxillary controls such as dual fans, etc.
FI? Not sure what this is?
Sorry Forced Induction; supercharger or turbocharger.

As you say, additional output drivers are available with MS, but are there enough, and switch inputs, to cover all the EEC-V functions, especially with an automatic gearbox?



And now your other observations.....
The idea is to replace your EEC-V but in some cases that won't be very easy, software would have to be written for the additional processor to run the gauge pod, plus the added circuits for driving alll the car specific stuff.
Understood, but aren't many projects will just running fuelling and ignition with MS. The extra software and its configuration could be a long time coming to cover everyones full EEC-V replacement.
My biggest problem is that I don't own any of these cars, all my cars are older than 1997, which my 1997 car has 104pin EEC-V but the implementation is very simple still with the analog dash and standard return style fuel system.
I've got one of them! :D
A 1998 Mondeo 1.8l (Contour in America I think). Its actually the one I wanted to MS first as the engine has done over 150k and needs some major preventative maintenance. Its more economic (& fun) to drop in a rebuilt 2.0l Focus RS Turbo engine.....maybe.

That also raises an earlier issue you raised, the case. The Mondeo actually uses the EEC-V case as the bulkhead fitting. The connector is in the engine bay, most of the case inside above the RH footwell. So for me, using the adapter PCB in a Ford case as an adapter, this is good as I can keep the MS and other extra circuits inside.
My goal though is to put out functional hardware, and some smart cookie can do the programming, or, if I buy a newer car I will have to get it working.
A great target which sounds as if its really a repackaged MS with an EEC-V connector. :)

But please don't delay another batch of revised 'adapter' boards in order to produce that without software supporting it. I don't fancy having to use a supplimentary adaptor loom instead of one of your PCBs.

Cheers

Martin.
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Post by MegaScott »

OK, My plan for the next round of adaptor boards is to retain the DB37 connector but to have another connector on board for a Microsquirt. Also there will be a connector for a Tecnological arts 9S12 module that has all of the same I/O as a GPIO board as far as signals to/from the processor. There will be at least enough extra drivers and input circuits for transmission control on a E4OD transmission.

Now given that you don't need a transmission controller you can use the extra 9s12 as a I/O controller using the programmability of the GPIO firmware as is, or create your own firmware do do whatever you want to do.
pdfbt40
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Post by pdfbt40 »

Hi Scott,

How's the board going? Any further proposals to consider or is it firmed up now?

Other wise I'll have to start a snake pit of splices/shares/swapped connections to get MS1 running the engine, but the EEC-V handling security and the dash instruments. :cry:

Martin
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Post by MegaScott »

pdfbt40 wrote:Hi Scott,

How's the board going? Any further proposals to consider or is it firmed up now?

Other wise I'll have to start a snake pit of splices/shares/swapped connections to get MS1 running the engine, but the EEC-V handling security and the dash instruments. :cry:

Martin
I have a design. Routing is in progress, though progress is slow due to nice weather and longer hours at work than planned. Most likely you will see a real EEC-V board for sale on my web site in October. I would have liked to have boards earlier, like last month, but things are just not working out as planned as far as schedule goes..
pdfbt40
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Post by pdfbt40 »

Oooh, you tease!

Well having just passed its annual inspection, my 104pin 1998 Mondeo has had the catalytic convertor start to rattle. :(
Cam belt is due for a change as well (152k), but I have a complete engine ready to go in, which needs a bigger diameter exhaust.......

Think a day today cutting the bolts off the cat so I can remove the loose matrix :twisted:
That will keep it going for another couple of months. :D

Martin
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Re: Ford EEC-V to MegaSquirt adaptor board, I need your inp

Post by dragogt »

First yes I know this is a massive necro post..

That said, what came about of this, where you able to get it to work? I looked, but didn't see anything on the diy site and nothing comes up in a search..
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Re: Ford EEC-V to MegaSquirt adaptor board, I need your inp

Post by MegaScott »

by dragogt » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:03 pm

First yes I know this is a massive necro post..

That said, what came about of this, where you able to get it to work? I looked, but didn't see anything on the diy site and nothing comes up in a search..
Geez...Time has flown by since that original post at the start of this thread.

I eventually found out that the demand for the EEC-V adapter board was limited. Seems not many people other the few who received free boards were interested in a project like this, possibly 1 or 2 emails a month compared to about a hundred emails or more a month for the then popular EEC-IV board, not much demand for an EEC-V product it seemed.

That said...I did make quite a few EEC-IV boards for sale off my original, now defunct MegaEFI.com web site, which BTW, that old board is still sold by DIYAutotune.com, though now foreshadowed by an "PNP" kit which they have developed in house.

I ended up changing jobs, more overseas travel, Divorce, and subsequent loss of my shop...now I'm re-married settled down and starting to regroup. Sure I still travel a fair bit, and still have no shop to speak of, but any further developments of adaptor boards or other Megasquirt related hardware will most likely be solely for my own consumption.

Scott
pdfbt40
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Re: Ford EEC-V to MegaSquirt adaptor board, I need your inp

Post by pdfbt40 »

Scott,

Its good to hear that your regrouping and life is coming together again for you.

Its a great shame, though you were in a better position at the time to judge the demand for 104 pin boards, even if I missed the initial batch.

The project I described did go ahead, the cat never got cut open. The replacement engine was a Mk1 Focus RS one, standard spec but with an air/air intercooler and just about every other bit of plumbing specially fabricated. I had to hard wire the 104 connector and split into 2 harnesses for the original PCM (for security and ancillary control) and the MS Extra. Got very crowded at the connector turning 90 degrees with so many wires, some quite heavy gauge.

Still it all worked quite well, 230bhp - 270 ftlb at the flywheel (as calculated by rundown losses - standard in UK). As it still looks entirely standard 13 year old Mondeo (Contour) with tradition tank tape on cracked bumpers, it has been known to surprise a few people.

Whether it was that project, or several other things, unfortunately I too have gone through divorce, loss of house, etc. Getting it back together now and as I don't have to care for family, I now have a neat proper workshop and a chassis on order for a replica of a Group B RS200!! Unfortunately it may need another 104 pin splitter !!

Martin
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Re: Ford EEC-V to MegaSquirt adaptor board, I need your inp

Post by PSIG »

MegaScott wrote:...now I'm re-married settled down and starting to regroup.
Hey - you're alive and kicking! Somethin' to say for that.
Image
David
-=≡ If it was easy, everyone would do it. ≡=-
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Re: Ford EEC-V to MegaSquirt adaptor board, I need your inp

Post by MegaScott »

Thanks David,

I know it's been a struggle, but yes, I'm still kicking...
Like they say, "When life throws you lemons, Make lemonade"

I'm making the best of what I have, still working on new board for my Cougar (for my own use) incorporating MS3... etc.. into something that I hope looks allot like an EMS pro with lots more flashing LED's..LOL
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Re: Ford EEC-V to MegaSquirt adaptor board, I need your inp

Post by 62f100 »

just like to tell you thanks for all the help you gave many years ago before you moved out of CA.good to see you posting around again & would like to see some pics of the cougar.
62 f100,uni body,4.6 motor&updated chasis, ms2 micromodule
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Re: Ford EEC-V to MegaSquirt adaptor board, I need your inp

Post by MegaScott »

62f100 wrote:just like to tell you thanks for all the help you gave many years ago before you moved out of CA.good to see you posting around again & would like to see some pics of the cougar.
Thanks ! No worries!

I am stuck in Kimchee land until October 2012..afterwards I fully expect to stay in good ol' USA for at least enough time to get the 331 installed in the Cougar and install the new "EEC-IV/MS3" board I have designed for it...(not for sale to the public). No more long term gigs overseas for me for awhile...unless it's in the Maldives...lol

I will take pics as progress goes on the Cougar probably will post on my Facebook page and Pinterest (user name "fscotthall")...Setting up the 331 for 36-1 wheel and Exploder CID, LS2 coils and 900CFM single four Throttle body, 8x45lb port injectors on a single plane intake, Manual trans conversion, 9inch rear...blah blah blah..
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