TinyIOx Questions

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Re: TinyIOx Questions

Postby SethU » Wed May 24, 2017 11:55 am

A little update and a couple questions

I ended up trying 30ga wire to make the jumps around the board. They seem to break off really easily if manipulated too much. Also, it's a complete rats nest and nearly impossible to correct some mistakes I made soldering in a couple of the output transistors. Doable, but extremely delicate procedures. And even then, I seem to break a couple wires off, then break wires off fixing the wires that broke off. LOL

Partially out of that and partially out of pure intrigue, I've looked into and am learning to use the Eagle Software. And one of the companies mentioned above has a 5 boards for $5 special right now. So, I may ultimately go that route. It would be nice having everything tidy and professional-ish without the headache of broken wires.

So, that's the update portion.

Question...

In investigating the option and possibility of putting the knock sensors (via a KnockSense module) on the TinyIOx, I'm not sure I completely understand it accurately.
In TunerStudio, I open the knock sensor settings, drop down Input Type and click the option for analog (I'd like to have full spectrum analog logging vs. knock/no knock, on/off solution), then drop down "Knock Input Pin" and it gives me the option of using SpareADC1, SpareADC2, or a single bit (0-7) on port 3 from the TinyIOx. But, in the port settings, the options are either 1 PWM or 8 digital. I thought "digital" was simply on or off, is that incorrect? Will running the analog knock signal through one of those bits on port 3 give me the full analog signal I'm looking for? I didn't see the option to choose one of the 8 CAN ADC's that are set up at the bottom of the CAN Parameters as the input pin for knock.

Can I move the knock sensors to the TinyIOx and still get full analog monitoring?

Thanks for the assistance in understanding all of this guys. Highly valued.
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Re: TinyIOx Questions

Postby racingmini_mtl » Wed May 24, 2017 12:34 pm

The MS2/Extra code has a pretty basic knock sensing algorithm and it uses an on/off input when using CAN. What you could do with an analog signal is to connect it to one of the TIOx ADC inputs and use the programmable on/off outputs to transform it into an on/off signal using a threshold. You could assign this to a virtual I/O and then use this virtual I/O as one of the port 3 channels.

The PWM signal you mention is to allow the MS2/Microsquirt to have a CAN PWM output by using all 8 bits for a single signal. This is available for PWM idle and boost control. So you're correct that a digital signal is simply an on/off signal but this is a way to reuse a CAN parameter for additional functionality at the expense of 8 digital I/Os.

And if you want to log the analog signal, you can do so either through the CAN ADC on the Microsquirt or through the TIOx datalog. In the first case, you need to set up CAN polling. In the latter case, TunerStudio does it when you add the TIOx as a CAN device to your Microsquirt project and enable realtime data logging.

Jean
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Re: TinyIOx Questions

Postby SethU » Wed May 24, 2017 1:19 pm

Thank you Jean,

So, if I'm understanding correctly, even though the options exist in TunerStudio for analog input through a single bit on port 3... it's not actually possible and is a slight oversight in the TS software

Which is what I suspected and wanted to confirm. It would be nice if it was able to link to and utilize one of the CAN ADC's. Maybe a future update.

Thank you again for the clarification Jean. I'll update here as things progress
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Re: TinyIOx Questions

Postby racingmini_mtl » Wed May 24, 2017 2:16 pm

Yeah, it doesn't make sense to have digital inputs for an analog signal and using the CAN ADC inputs would solve that. I actually don't know what the code does with the digital inputs when you select analog. I'll have to have a look. It should be relatively easy to change that.

Jean
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Re: TinyIOx Questions

Postby SethU » Thu May 25, 2017 9:18 am

Jean,

I contacted EFI Analytics to notify them of the issue and this was their response:

That is going to be something that Jean will need to correct in his firmware and the ECU definition file. Jean creates the firmware and the ECU definition file to go along with it. The ECU definition file defines all the settings that you are referring to that are available in the firmware. TunerStudio is the user interface that allows you to connect and tune the settings in the ECU but they are all defined by the firmware developers.


Is it something you can solve? To add the CAN ADC's to the "Knock Input Pin" drop down, when "Analog" is selected as the Input Type?

I really appreciate your assistance Jean. Thank you.
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Re: TinyIOx Questions

Postby racingmini_mtl » Thu May 25, 2017 9:41 am

I guess I wasn't clear in my previous message. As EFI Analytics mentions, this is a firmware and ini issue. But it is not an issue on the TinyIOx side but rather on the MS2/Extra side. The TinyIOx has nothing to do with knock control but only provides input data that the MS2 interprets as knock and then reacts accordingly.

I've had a look at the MS2/Extra code and if you select a CAN digital input, it ignores whether or not you've selected analog and treats it as an on/off input. It could be changed but I'm not the one who decides if this can be done as an official release.

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Re: TinyIOx Questions

Postby SethU » Thu May 25, 2017 10:08 am

You may have been clear. I may not have understood. I don't fully understand how the whole code and software/firmware process works, and who does what. I'm soaking it up along the way, but ultimately I'm just an end user with end user lack of knowledge.

Thank you for expanding on that.

It would be great to have it pull an analog signal from the CAN ADC's.

Who might I contact, to suggest the change? contact@megasquirt.co.uk ?

Or, is there a particular thread on this forum you're aware of, that may be particularly effective in presenting the issue to the right person?

This is the last loose end, in having the ability to have everything do what I need/want, and your assistance has been spot on and invaluable to me.

Thank you Jean.

-Seth-
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Re: TinyIOx Questions

Postby racingmini_mtl » Thu May 25, 2017 10:13 am

You can post a feature request in the MS2/Extra development forum.

Jean
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Re: TinyIOx Questions

Postby SethU » Thu May 25, 2017 11:27 am

I appreciate the direction Jean.
Done.
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=66240
Hopefully it finds the right set of eyes.

Now, back to figuring out this Eagle stuff...
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Re: TinyIOx Questions

Postby SethU » Fri May 26, 2017 10:20 pm

racingmini_mtl wrote:It could be changed but I'm not the one who decides if this can be done as an official release.

Jean


Is it something that can be changed, even if it's not an official release? If so, how would I go about getting that done? Is it something you can and would be willing to do, or help me do? What costs might be involved?

Thank you Jean.

-Seth-
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Re: TinyIOx Questions

Postby racingmini_mtl » Fri May 26, 2017 11:42 pm

I posted on your other thread: viewtopic.php?f=91&t=66240&p=503318#p503318

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Re: TinyIOx Questions

Postby SethU » Sat May 27, 2017 1:11 am

I saw that Jean. I can't thank you enough.

That little change, not only allows me to have my set up the way I want it and have it do absolutely everything I hoped to gain with the TinyIOx... It also now makes sense in my mind. Being new at this electronics stuff I'm learning as I go and that little minute discrepancy was causing me to chase my tail quite a bit. A lot of head scratching trying to put the puzzle pieces together in my mind.

It all makes sense now and I'm glad I asked. I'm very grateful for you're assistance Jean.

As an extension of my gratitude, when I get the circuits all laid out in eagle, get a few boards ordered, and verify they work as intended, I'll be very happy to share my success and provide the Gerber files to anyone wanting to achieve what I'm doing. Perhaps I'll post them here and also write up success story on your forum along with a specific, easy to follow set-up tutorial from my newbie perspective on how to implement the TinyIOx to gain nearly full featured functionality with a MicroSquirt on GM LS based engines. I know there's a bunch already out there, making do with the MicroSquirt alone, without the additional features available through CAN.

Instead of sinking the boards in potting resin, I'm halfway considering having some cases for the TinyIOx and IO circuit board 3D printed, that piggy back the MicroSquirt case and tie into it's mounting hole location for a simple, clean, and easy to mount solution.

I really hope you keep producing the TinyIOx.

Again, thank you so, so much. For everything so far.

-Seth-
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Push to Start

Postby SethU » Sun May 28, 2017 4:32 pm

Jean,

I was perusing through some of the options in Tunerstudio, I noticed the "Push To Start" option under the Extended Control Tab. I did some Googling and read through the available threads. I had some thoughts in the matter and figured I'd share them.

Seems, in an effort to make it feature packed and perfect, it grew into a large expansive project that then became back shelved to more pressing things.

Maybe, just as something to build upon in the future, basic on/off functions could be implemented, in order to make it a slightly more usable function, without having to make it absolutely pimped out and perfect, while still being universally adaptable to nearly any engine platform.

If I understand correctly, the function is on the TinyIOx itself, independent of the ECU and it's firmware.

If that's the case, it seems to me that a simple, one input, two output solution could be hard wired into a project engine several different ways to suit individual application needs. One output for the starter, the other switched for whatever wiring option the build requires.

For me, I think I'd have "key on" apply power to the TinyIOx and have the switched out signal from the TinyIOx wired to power the ECU, (Which in turn energizes the coils and injectors, via the fuel pump circuit)... just as it would be if it were wired directly to a traditional ignition switch. Although, for other applications, maybe it would be more appropriate to wire the switched output to fuel, spark, or both, and have keyed on power energize the ECU and Tiny IOx together. Or any combination that suits. This essentially makes it a wiring option instead of a software/firmware based option... eliminating additional programming time/effort/complexity.

Proposed super basic operation parameters that should be manageable to program, provide basic start/stop control at the push of a button, that can be further developed upon in the future:

Let's call the two outputs, "Switched" and "Starter".

State 1

Power is present at the TinyIOx and Both outputs are off
Leading edge of Start/Stop button energizes both circuits. The Starter circuit operates through it's existing RPM Threshold and Timer Limited conditions.
If the RPM threshold is not met by the end of Timer condition, everything resets to the beginning of State 1, all off.

State 2
The engine is running above the RPM Threshold, or currently cranking and below the RPM Threshold.
Leading edge of the Start/Stop button turns both circuits off, returning to State 1.
This would shut the engine off, or abort a start attempt.

State 3
Beginning at State 1 and the start button is held for longer than 1 second, the Timer Limit for the Starter circuit is ignored and stops cranking when the button is released, even if it's released before or after the Timer Limit
The Switched output is energized and the Starter cranks until the button is released.
If the RPM Threshold has been met the switched output stays ON, if it has not been met both outputs revert to State 1, all off.

This would allow the button to automatically operate like a standard momentary starter switch/button, ignoring the auto start features, as well as allow manual cranking if the ignition and/or fueling has been manually disabled for operations like compression testing or oil priming. Just as the case would be with traditional ignition switch solutions.

Seems like this scheme wouldn't add any undesirable or dangerous conditions that don't already exist with traditional ignition switch options, while adding the convenience and cool factor of push button start/stop.

I don't know what's entailed in writing the code for this proposal. Maybe, without all the bells and whistles I read about in the other threads, it's an evening project? Or, maybe a week or more? Dunno.

I just thought I'd throw it out there, that it would be cool to have the Push Button Start option enhanced to this basic on/off functionality, at a minimum.

Would it be a huge undertaking? If it's not a huge undertaking, and there's any chance or likelihood of it becoming a reality in the near future, I'll check my notes and see if I have the extra I/O's available. Pretty sure I do. Maybe I'll just add them to the Eagle project and see how it effects routing.

Anyway, thanks for reading the ramble and taking it into consideration Jean.

-Seth-
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Re: TinyIOx Questions

Postby SethU » Sun May 28, 2017 5:27 pm

To add on to that... if you wanted to integrate a simple panic function, two or three leading edges within a second could turn both outputs off and disable further input triggers until the power has been cycled.
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