NEW HAAS OEM ignition coil Not working ?

Specifications, applications, part numbers, and prices for various OEM fuel injection components.

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NEW HAAS OEM ignition coil Not working ?

Postby cobra351w » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:45 am

Hi guys,


Real weird one here, I have been running quite happily a pair of NGK 48038's which compare too the following:-

SKODA (06A 905 097)
SKODA (06A 905 097 A)
SKODA (06A 905 104)
VW (06A 905 097)
VW (06A 905 097 A)
VW (06A 905 104)~

See page 101 of the MS3X/V3.57 Hardware Manual


One of the original NGK coils lost a channel (tested via can bus mode tests and substitution)

Now due purely to timescales of availability I have just tried a HAAS 41344031( and also a another as assumed new part was DOA) and they appear to be dead as a dodo.

I tried swapping the existing good one to the opposite bank that works, and the new HAAS one to working NGK side, the NGK still works , but the HAAS is still dead?

I'm driving the coils from the MSX logic drivers in full sequential mode , one channel per spark output.

I'm really scratching my head here , as cant work out why these dont work , when they should be exactly the same part.


The only difference I can find is the NGK ones state "with output stage" , whilst all the others state "Coupling Type Saw Tooth"


But even the engine codes from the original parts are the same :-

NGK Coil, ignition 48038 6terminalIgnition Coil SKODA OCTAVIA Combi (1U5) 2.0 from Year 04.1999 116 PS: Coil, ignition (48038) for from NGK
8.4/10 Reviews - 5
Article №: 48038
NGK Coil, ignition 6terminal

SKODA OCTAVIA Combi (1U5) 2.0 from Year 04.1999 116 PS
Number of Poles:6
Engine Code:AZJ
Required quantity:1
Ignition Coil:with output stage
Port Type:M4
Number of Inlets / Outlets:4

BERU Coil, ignition 0040102029Ignition Coil SKODA OCTAVIA Combi (1U5) 2.0 from Year 04.1999 116 PS: Coil, ignition (0040102029) for from BERU
8.7/10 Reviews - 3
Article №: 0040102029 (this is recommended from h/w maual)
BERU Coil, ignition

SKODA OCTAVIA Combi (1U5) 2.0 from Year 04.1999 116 PS
Engine Code:AZJ
Required quantity:1
Ignition Coil:Coupling Type Saw Tooth


and my new one:-
HAAS Ignition CoilProduct Code: 413440431
Ignition CoilCoupling Type Saw ToothRequired quantity1Engine Code AZJ



Has anybody else hit issues like this, and is there any change in config settings that may help this ?


Fortunately I have a pair of the BERU coils coming next , but really worried these wont work either?
cobra351w
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Re: NEW HAAS OEM ignition coil Not working ?

Postby cobra351w » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:26 am

I just looked further down the pages in the manual and see:-

"Before using an "unknown" coil it is necessary to check the resistance to ground on the input.
Using a multimeter set to resistance, check between the Spark Signal Input and Signal Ground.
If you have a reading of say ~1k then the Megasquirt MS3X outputs can be used directly"


Interestingly the new coil pack signal gnd -> signal input are 500 ohms , comapred to the NGK working ones which are 1k.

Are the new coils simply sinking too much current for the MSX drivers ?
cobra351w
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Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:24 am
Location: Crowthorne Berkshire England

Re: NEW HAAS OEM ignition coil Not working ?

Postby cobra351w » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:34 am

I hooked up a simple test rig, where substituting resistors , I was able to determine the firing point for each of the coils, and low and behold, the HAAS ones need twice the amount of current :-


HAAS
Logic level +5v current limit set @ 16mA- NOT FIRING!!

Logic level +5v current limit set@ 25mA Fires

NGK

Logic Level +5v unable to determine bottom end limit, but fires as low as 2.5mA .

If this is the case for the new BERU coils arriving I'm in deep doodoo :cry:

It looks like if I want to allow for OEM coils, I need to cover all bases, and add some additional drivers to the logic outputs from the MSX.

I have found a few mentions of this, but as by nature of the forums , nobody has published a circuit diagram, and what components to use.

I'm running full sequential of the MSX card, I dont want to go wasted spark due to the messy coil HT leads crossovers , so just want something in series to give the outputs a "boost"


Ideas anybody?
cobra351w
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Location: Crowthorne Berkshire England

Re: NEW HAAS OEM ignition coil Not working ?

Postby jsmcortina » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:44 pm

Use the TC4427 circuit externally driven by the MS3X.

James
I can supply, repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: viewtopic.php?f=104&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
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Re: NEW HAAS OEM ignition coil Not working ?

Postby cobra351w » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:40 am

James,

Thanks, that's exactly what i was after , I assume you mean the subject of this thread:-

viewtopic.php?f=131&t=58469


and Page 90 of the MS3 h/w manual.

The only issue i guess will be the decision on wiring, I guess I can pull the 5V from proto on the ECU and wire through the DB15 connector , and then use that to power an external module PCB, and then simply place the new module in series with the existing spark output wires.

As I need 8 logic outputs I still require the need to use the MSX, so taking these directly off the msx board wont be easy, apart fro using the external existing db37.

Otherwise I could place the new module nearer the coils using the 12v supply off those , to power the module.?



I think the former would be less likely to suffer any interference.


Thanks..
cobra351w
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Re: NEW HAAS OEM ignition coil Not working ?

Postby cobra351w » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:19 am

James,

One more question, as the input resistance e is somewhere between low and high impedance Logic coils , will that govern the size of the resistor value to use, which was quoted as 15R 1/8W, I assume with a coilpack of around 600R , I may need a higher value resistor?

regards..
cobra351w
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Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:24 am
Location: Crowthorne Berkshire England

Re: NEW HAAS OEM ignition coil Not working ?

Postby jsmcortina » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:39 am

The specified values should be ok.

James
I can supply, repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: viewtopic.php?f=104&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
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Re: NEW HAAS OEM ignition coil Not working ?

Postby cobra351w » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:11 am

James,

Thanks, I'll hook it up this week, and update the post.

Regards..

Rob.
cobra351w
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Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:24 am
Location: Crowthorne Berkshire England

Re: NEW HAAS OEM ignition coil Not working ?

Postby cobra351w » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:47 am

I'm closing this post down with the final outcome, as it drives me mad when people don't! :evil:


My new BERU coils arrived, stamped with the official part numbers:-

0040102029, 06A905097

I thought I'd test these out first, and initially using the low current as per the original NGK coils they did not work, however giving a little more current @7-8mA they fired !!!

This is well inside what the ECU can drive, so happy they should always fire, plus a little more protection of misfiring.

I have now fitted them, replacing both the NGK units (keeping the good as a hot spare), and have been working faultlessly for the past 2 weeks .

Thanks James , for the alternative solution, but as I now have a proven solution, I'm sticking with it.

Regards


Rob.
cobra351w
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Posts: 21
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