How to make ignition coil pack fire

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wkellen
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How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by wkellen »

I have a tractor I can no longer get a distributor or distributor parts for. I also have a 2005 chevy aveo sitting with the motor shot. I found the cam position sensor and the ignition coil pack. I think I can modify the tractor distributor to use with the aveo cam position sensor. Can anyone tell me what kind of signal the cam position sensor will output when it sees metal and when it doesnt? Can anyone tell me how to make the ignition coil pack fire? It only has 3 wires marked "A B C".

Image

I am not sure I need all the megasquirt functionallity on this 1963 4 cylinder tractor, but something down and dirty easy may work.
Matt Cramer
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by Matt Cramer »

This coil pack looks like it's going to need a pair of BIP373s to trigger. Not sure on the cam sensor; you're best testing it yourself.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
wkellen
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by wkellen »

Is there a diagram somewhere on how to hook these BIP373s up? Do I apply 12v to the "B" post, and then hook the BIP373s to the "A" and "C" posts? Does this basically supply a ground to the coil to make it fire? I read where some coils fire once the "signal" is removed. So does the BIP373 supply a ground for a timed period and then release it to make it fire? I am going to meter the position sensor to see what I get from it. Thanks for the help.
LAV1000
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by LAV1000 »

Normaly the coil is hooked up to 12V and bips switch it to ground.
The bips are switched to ground a certain time to load the coil this called dwell time.
And when the bip disconnects coil from ground, presto spark happens :D

As to find wich ABC pen is needed :
Put sparkplugs on the coils and ground them, also ground the coil at its mounting holes.
Might be that some hole is coded whit ground.

Put 12V to 1 of the ABC pins and ground shortly (just tipping) an other pin to ground.
Be aware on grounding normal dwell time is in msec !
Repeat this with other pin arangement to get decent sparks.

Dwell timing could be achieved by the lenght off distrubutor cam.
wkellen
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by wkellen »

Exactly what I was looking for. I wasn't sure if it was ground of some kind of 5v signal that triggered this one. I can handle that.

Then to test the cam position sensor from it so I know when to fire which one. I am thinking of just detecting at 90 degree intervals. When the state of the cam position sensor changes is when it should fire with wasted spark.

Here is what the cam position sensor looks like and I know steel sticks to it, so it has a magnet inside the sensor to trigger it.
Image
billr
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by billr »

Be careful how you control dwell time, at "tractor speeds" the total ignition-event period is fairly long and dwell time may need to be a small percentage of the total to keep from overheating the coils.
wkellen
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by wkellen »

Ok, a little testing this afternoon. I still have the car this was in, so I put a battery in it. I turned the key to the run position and metered the 3 wires. I found that the middle wire (red) was 12v. I have the head with all the plugs still in it. I hooked the ignition coil plug wires to the plugs. Red wire to 12v positive terminal of the battery. Ground wires from battery to the head and to the bolt holes of coil. Then I took a wire from ground of battery and tapped it to the other 2 wires separately. No sparks anywhere except for where I tapped the two wires together. I checked the battery and it had 12.6v. I am using a trolling motor battery, so I know it had enough juice. I double checked all my connections and all were good. Any ideas?

I haven't tried to figure out the cam position sensor yet. That's for another day.
wkellen
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by wkellen »

Understood on the dwell times. Max rpm on the tractor is 2000.
billr
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by billr »

You really need a schematic on that '05 Aveo donor, if somebody here can't provide it I will get from a more GP forum.
LAV1000
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by LAV1000 »

wkellen wrote: No sparks anywhere except for where I tapped the two wires together.
Try wires separately.

Can you measure resistance between the ABC pins ?
What value's do you get ?
wkellen
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by wkellen »

billr wrote:You really need a schematic on that '05 Aveo donor, if somebody here can't provide it I will get from a more GP forum.
I agree. I have looked all over, but it is a GM / Daewoo joint venture, so info is hard to come by for that car.
I know "B" is the 12v positive pin. After I metered the wire on the car.
LAV1000 wrote:
wkellen wrote: No sparks anywhere except for where I tapped the two wires together.
Try wires separately.

Can you measure resistance between the ABC pins ?
What value's do you get ?
I did try the wires separately. Same results.
I will measure the resistance this afternoon and report back.

I also read a forum where someone said you can't just tap the wires, because it doesn't have a clean break in voltage. This being evident by the spark between the ground wire and the trigger wire.
billr
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by billr »

Go here for the schematics:

http://batauto.com/threads/05-chevy-ave ... post-91297

CKP and CMP stuff is already there, coil info should follow soon.
wkellen
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by wkellen »

A -> B =.6 ohms
C -> B =.6 ohms
B -> A =.6 ohms
B -> C =.6 ohms

I never checked across A and C. I figured they were different coil triggers, so they didn't connect at all.
kjones6039
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by kjones6039 »

wkellen wrote:I never checked across A and C. I figured they were different coil triggers, so they didn't connect at all.
I'm not sure that I understand your point above, but I will say that you have already proven that pin B is 12v, by virtue of the test you performed on the car. Which is, pin B is 12v and pins A & C are the triggers (grounds)for the 2 coils.

If you had measured between pins A&C, I submit, you would have measured ~1.2 ohms, further supporting the concept that pin B is the power pin.

Ken
1979 Corvette - 383 CID SBC w/ Holley Pro-Jection 900 CFM TBI, 4-85 lb lo-z injectors & Walbro 255 pump
MS2 v3 w/extra 3.4.2 Release
36-1, Delphi LS2/7 coils in wasted spark, driven by v2.0 logic board from JBPerformance
Spartan Lambda Sensor from 14point7
TinyIOX from JBPerformance
wkellen
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by wkellen »

I was just saying I thought it was pointless to test ohms across the other 2 wires. I agree B is 12v and the other 2 are triggers. However I cant get it to fire a spark at the plugs when I tap the trigger wires to ground. I will have to try to build a circuit to make it ground and release faster than I can tap to try to get it to fire.

I just metered the CMP according to the schematic. I attached +12v to the brown wire and ground to the black/white wire. Then I attached my meter black wire to battery ground and red to the signal wire. I saw no change at all when touching the sensor with metal. What is the correct way to meter it and what type signal am I looking for? Voltage? Ground? I got a reading of -.331 VDC. I got no ground on the signal wire.

Thanks for the help!
kjones6039
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by kjones6039 »

wkellen wrote:what type signal am I looking for? Voltage? Ground? I got a reading of -.331 VDC.
The short answer is: Yes, you should see a voltage pulse (square wave, generally) at the Hall sensor signal wire when a piece of ferrous metal passes in close proximity to the sensor.

Just touching a piece of metal to the sensor isn't likely to tell you much, IMO.......

Ken
1979 Corvette - 383 CID SBC w/ Holley Pro-Jection 900 CFM TBI, 4-85 lb lo-z injectors & Walbro 255 pump
MS2 v3 w/extra 3.4.2 Release
36-1, Delphi LS2/7 coils in wasted spark, driven by v2.0 logic board from JBPerformance
Spartan Lambda Sensor from 14point7
TinyIOX from JBPerformance
wkellen
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by wkellen »

Passing metal by it, I can get a .3 VDC reading and then it goes back to 0. I was expecting a lot higher voltage.
billr
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by billr »

You probably need pull-up resistors for those CKP and CMP sensors.
wkellen
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by wkellen »

Since I am not seeing much voltage from this one, what is a good cam position sensor to use? I would like to see DC volt changes that are a little more distinguished. I found one in stock at a local Advance Auto for about $18. Looks like it fits a 2008 Dodge Caliber and is 3 wire. It looks easier to mount too. I am looking to read high / low state changes every 90 degrees of rotation. I am going to make a piece to fit the top of the shaft from the distributor. It will basically look like this.... (X) I am thinking the sensor will show voltage when at the "(" and the ")". It will show nothing at the top and bottom of the "X". This way I always know what 2 spark plugs to fire.
kjones6039
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Re: How to make ignition coil pack fire

Post by kjones6039 »

wkellen wrote:Since I am not seeing much voltage from this one, what is a good cam position sensor to use?
My recommendation would be to follow Bill's suggestion and install a pull-up resistor. A resistor can be had for a whole lot less than $18!!

Ken
1979 Corvette - 383 CID SBC w/ Holley Pro-Jection 900 CFM TBI, 4-85 lb lo-z injectors & Walbro 255 pump
MS2 v3 w/extra 3.4.2 Release
36-1, Delphi LS2/7 coils in wasted spark, driven by v2.0 logic board from JBPerformance
Spartan Lambda Sensor from 14point7
TinyIOX from JBPerformance
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