Timing advance processor

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Timing advance processor

Postby savagerocco » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:34 pm

I know this really isn't the place to ask but figured someone Here might have a source for something like this.

I have a zamboni that I work on and the rink has been using CNG forever. The zams used to be available with CNG but now they only sell them propane. So I have converted the last two over to CNG. Basically all it involves is CNG tanks and an IPR intermediate pressure regulator that drops the CNG from 2500 psi to 45 psi that runs into the propane setup. We have to change the jetting a little but the main issue is timing. I need a way to advance the timing and get the power back up to usable levels. The khubota 1.6 motor is running a computer that has a 60-2 vr sensor. I'd prefer to change timing in programming but it is locked up tight. So my alternative is a timing processor that advances the signal to the ecu. Stag has one in Europe but haven't found and distributors state side. Anybody have some helpful links or suppliers?

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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby juansh2385 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:34 am

It's not an elegant solution but maybe you can rotate the 60-2 wheel that will result in a fix advance or retard timing depending how much and in what direction you rotate the trigger wheel.
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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby savagerocco » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:43 am

that would require pulling the engine, it is on the flywheel. I looked at moving the crank sensor, but there isn't an easy way to move it due to the mounting points of the sensor. plus that would screw with the starting timing as well.
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life behind the zion curtain
90 audi RS2 20VTQ 6sp MS3, MSX COP and Sequential and now MAF
87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
89 VW cabbie (bitch basket) 2.0 ABA Turbo MSII
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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby Marek » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:14 am

Can you not simply tell MS that the #1 tooth is further around and achieve the same via software?
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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby savagerocco » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:09 am

This isn't a megasquirt, it is factory efi system that I have no access to program.
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87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby racingmini_mtl » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:10 pm

Retarding timing is going to be a lot easier than advancing it. You could set the timing for the advanced position you want and then either retard the tach signal or the spark signal using a small microcontroller and some relatively simple code that would change the delay as a function of RPM to keep a constant angle delay (or whatever curve you want instead).

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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby savagerocco » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:15 pm

Only problem is I need to advance for the CNG. The power is too low and the m anifold is nice and cherry hot after cutting the ice. I found a company in Poland that makes just this adapter. Stag tap-01
http://www.ac.com.pl/en/produkt/317/tap-01
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life behind the zion curtain
90 audi RS2 20VTQ 6sp MS3, MSX COP and Sequential and now MAF
87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
89 VW cabbie (bitch basket) 2.0 ABA Turbo MSII
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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby savagerocco » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:16 pm

If I could get into the software that would be ideal but I can't that is why I need an interceptor type device
Brent Savage
life behind the zion curtain
90 audi RS2 20VTQ 6sp MS3, MSX COP and Sequential and now MAF
87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
89 VW cabbie (bitch basket) 2.0 ABA Turbo MSII
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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby racingmini_mtl » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:24 pm

What I meant is to physically change the VR sensor position to the most advanced position and then use a microcontroller to retard it as needed. The default would be to always run with the retard delay but then go back to an advanced position when needed (or anywhere between the advanced and retarded position).

That way, the only programming needed is on the microcontroller and you could have any advance curve you want (as long as the standard ECU can handle the transitions). That would also be safer than advancing since there is no prediction of tooth position but simply a delay from actual position.

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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby savagerocco » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:59 pm

That Is A Possibility But Would have To Split The Engine And Hydrostatic Pump Which Would Be Quite A task.
Brent Savage
life behind the zion curtain
90 audi RS2 20VTQ 6sp MS3, MSX COP and Sequential and now MAF
87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
89 VW cabbie (bitch basket) 2.0 ABA Turbo MSII
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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby elaw » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:06 am

Have you tried contacting Zamboni and see if they have any ideas? I wonder if they could supply an alternate ECU programmed for CNG. Or maybe the engine manufacturer could?
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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby savagerocco » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:36 am

I have contacted zamboni but it is an emissions compliance issue they won't help with it because it would be tampering even though cng is cleaner than propane...
Brent Savage
life behind the zion curtain
90 audi RS2 20VTQ 6sp MS3, MSX COP and Sequential and now MAF
87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
89 VW cabbie (bitch basket) 2.0 ABA Turbo MSII
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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby CSXRT4 » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:25 pm

How about use a megasquirt or microsquirt and use the stock ignition pulses as a tach input. Then ms can use the previous cylinder firing pulse to time the next ignition event, with prediction it should work well I would assume. Stock ecu could handle fueling and megasquirt would control the ignition coil(s).


Your ignition tables would be relative to factory timing, so just set to zero and then add timing in where you want it.
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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby savagerocco » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:36 pm

I sourced out a stag autogas tap-03 from Poland. It does just what I need and even has the ability to map out ignition based on map and tps input. If this doesn't work a piggy back megasquirt would do as well. Just didn't want to reinvent the wheel if it has already been done.
Brent Savage
life behind the zion curtain
90 audi RS2 20VTQ 6sp MS3, MSX COP and Sequential and now MAF
87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
89 VW cabbie (bitch basket) 2.0 ABA Turbo MSII
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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby newton.jason » Wed May 03, 2017 9:57 am

Requesting a followup on how the timing advance processor from STAG (TAP-03) is working.

I have recently completed a conversion of a 2002 VW 1.8t to bifuel (CNG / gasoline) and also installed a STAG TAP-03 timing advance processor. Its currently set for 10 degrees advance across the board. Instantly noticed additional low end torque and the motor spools the turbo faster now. Other than the displacement factor (10% for CNG), the car runs the same as it did on gasoline.

For some additional info, the conversion used mostly OMVL parts (Dream XXI controller, Injector rail and regulator) and plans in the next few months are to increase the boost when on CNG (either an ECU flash or a boost controller plus diode mod) to make some additional power.
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Re: Timing advance processor

Postby savagerocco » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:32 pm

So far it has run great without a hickup. I still need to work on fuel metering at idle for a lean conditions, but it runs close to original with propane now. When we used to finish cutting ice with the zamboni, the exhaust manifold would be glowing orange/red, and now the manifold is not nearly as hot.
Brent Savage
life behind the zion curtain
90 audi RS2 20VTQ 6sp MS3, MSX COP and Sequential and now MAF
87 Scirocco 2.0 ABA 16v EIP tubular cast MSII COP
86 Audi 4K20VTQ MSII
90 Audi 90 sedan 3.6l DOHC V8TT (project car)
89 VW cabbie (bitch basket) 2.0 ABA Turbo MSII
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