Alpha test: trigger return dizzy

[jsmcortina]

Post info and test results here

[MegaScott]

OK here's my test setup -

MS2 on a V3.0 board. Alpha code
Breakout board feeding IGN input using Signal Generator and a simulated PIP input -0-10v 50% square wave.

USB scope reading ignition input on channel B (blue trace), output on channel A (red trace)

I setup with Trigger return mode first, and at cranking speeds there is an ignition output for every signal transition input, the signal out looks inverted. When the RPM goes over 400 it switches to next cylinder mode properly, and the output is the correct polarity, but at fixed 50% duty cycle there is only 1 igniton for every other input, increasing RPM changes this, but every other pulse is very narrow. when you switch to less duty cycle it seems to effect only every other output, and it changes with RPM, at 4700 rpm with 8 cylinders chosen it just starts wigging out, missing pulses and finally turning off at about 4750rpm. the RPM it does this changes when you select a different cylinder count.

The output signal changes when standard trigger is chosen, but the dwell is still not right.

I have some pics up here -

http://picasaweb.google.com/megaefi/MS2ExtraTesting

[jsmcortina]

Could you post your MSQ and I'll try it on my stim.

James

[MegaScott]

James,

Sorry for the delay,

Attached is a .MSQ of the last try.

The 4700rpm dropouts are strange, seems to do it no matter what the Dwell setting.

[jsmcortina]

A couple of things to try:
Advanced-Advanced ignition options:
Try reducing the time mask and possibly the percentage mask.

On the stim this got rid of the missing pulses.

Some other observations:
Is your trigger angle correct at 0deg?
Is the vane size (angle) correct at 35deg? The V8 dizzy I measured is listed on the MS2/Extra site.

If the size is specified incorrectly you'll get weird timing output as the code uses both edges of the vane in its calculations.
I also replicated the strange short output by setting the wrong angle.

Hope that helps

James

[MegaScott]

A couple of things to try:
Advanced-Advanced ignition options:
Try reducing the time mask and possibly the percentage mask.

On the stim this got rid of the missing pulses.

Some other observations:
Is your trigger angle correct at 0deg?
Is the vane size (angle) correct at 35deg? The V8 dizzy I measured is listed on the MS2/Extra site.

If the size is specified incorrectly you'll get weird timing output as the code uses both edges of the vane in its calculations.
I also replicated the strange short output by setting the wrong angle.

Hope that helps

James

James,

Will the Signature PIP mess up the current code? or should I swap to a non-Signature PIP wheel?

I can verify those settings on the Stim, but it's not possible for me to check a signature PIP on the bench unless I wire one up and spin it with a drill. My sig gen is not the programmable type.

[racingmini_mtl]

I can verify those settings on the Stim, but it's not possible for me to check a signature PIP on the bench unless I wire one up and spin it with a drill. My sig gen is not the programmable type.

Boy that sounds like a job for the JimStim

[MegaScott]

I can verify those settings on the Stim, but it's not possible for me to check a signature PIP on the bench unless I wire one up and spin it with a drill. My sig gen is not the programmable type.

Boy that sounds like a job for the JimStim

Will you have the option to program pulse profiles, including a thinner pulse that would be good. I'll buy one! (of course I was planning on buying one anyway)

[newtyres1]

Scott,

That must be the only piece of MS-related gear that you don't have! Are you going to showcase it all one day? You're a walking MS Encyclopedia with live examples, even when you go overseas!

Ah, ahem, sorry for the slight thread deviation.

Ian.

[MegaScott]

Scott,

That must be the only piece of MS-related gear that you don't have! Are you going to showcase it all one day? You're a walking MS Encyclopedia with live examples, even when you go overseas!

Ah, ahem, sorry for the slight thread deviation.

Ian.

I don't have it 'cause I just found out about it at the Meeting in Richmond. James showed one there for the first time.

The Jim stim has a cpu on it that will be programmable to output wheel profiles such as 36-1, 12-1, etc.. for testing the wheel decoder. It also has some other neat features that are available now on the Breakout board. Right now i use the B&G sound card output for wheel decoder but that still doesn't do the PIP signature of TFI which is roughly 7 pulses of 50% duty cycle, and 1 pulse at 35% duty.

I can probably use the output of my USB O-scope to output a pulsetrain like this, and run it to the external input of my signal generator which should amplify it and send it out.....maybe when I get some spare time I'll try this.

Right now I'm putting the O2 sensor on the Cougar, I have a set of long tube Headers I'm going to install too. This is going to take a few hours, perhaps I'll take the day off work today to do this....Cough...cough..

[jsmcortina]

Didn't you check the MS2/Extra docs....?
( http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/ms2ignition.html#tfi )

Ford TFI

There are a number of variants of TFI
-4 cylinder, 6 cylinder and 8 cylinder
-"signature" or normal vanes. (The signature ones have one short vane and one long gap.)
-"Push Start" or "Computer Controlled Dwell" (CCD)

For non-signature PIP TFI distributors (even pattern of vanes and gaps) the Trigger Return mode (of alpha code) can be used.
The Ford documents claim the size of vanes/gaps is 50% but this does not match up with measurements I have taken.

(table removed)

The Trigger angle should be specified as 10° and the main to return angle is the vane size above.

In a future release there will be support for signature PIP mode, but to use one of these now, use basic trigger mode with the 10 degree trigger angle triggering off the even edge of the vanes.

The JimStim could be made to simulate sig-PIP TFI although I haven't written it yet. I have used it to generate a trigger-return dizzy pattern to test the code though.

James

[MegaScott]

Didn't you check the MS2/Extra docs....?
( http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/ms2ignition.html#tfi )

Ford TFI

There are a number of variants of TFI
-4 cylinder, 6 cylinder and 8 cylinder
-"signature" or normal vanes. (The signature ones have one short vane and one long gap.)
-"Push Start" or "Computer Controlled Dwell" (CCD)

For non-signature PIP TFI distributors (even pattern of vanes and gaps) the Trigger Return mode (of alpha code) can be used.
The Ford documents claim the size of vanes/gaps is 50% but this does not match up with measurements I have taken.

(table removed)

The Trigger angle should be specified as 10° and the main to return angle is the vane size above.

In a future release there will be support for signature PIP mode, but to use one of these now, use basic trigger mode with the 10 degree trigger angle triggering off the even edge of the vanes.

The JimStim could be made to simulate sig-PIP TFI although I haven't written it yet. I have used it to generate a trigger-return dizzy pattern to test the code though.

James

When I first started out I didn't know the docs even existed, so I just loaded it up. I will change my settings and install the different wheel on the dizzy, the wheels just unbolt from the top of the dizzy shaft. The non signature wheel mounts a little different but can be modded to work on a signature PIP dizzy. The non signature wheel I have is from a 351 dizzy which has a different shaft and oil pump drive size. Eventually I'll build a new engine that will have EDIS, but for now, TFI....

[jsmcortina]

If TFI is there, then use it!
That's what our code is supposed to be about - using the existing engine hardware and getting on with it.

I do want to try to support the signature PIP, but I've not had chance to work on it recently. There are some other TFI bits in the code that I've started on, but not finished. Sig-PIP will be more relevant for MS3 with sequential.

James

[MegaScott]

If TFI is there, then use it!
That's what our code is supposed to be about - using the existing engine hardware and getting on with it.

I do want to try to support the signature PIP, but I've not had chance to work on it recently. There are some other TFI bits in the code that I've started on, but not finished. Sig-PIP will be more relevant for MS3 with sequential.

James

I have a gt-40 front cover and accessories from a V8 Explorer that's setup for EDIS the easy way. Plus I have a trick intake setup going on it that interferes with the TFI dizzy.

Using the stock TFI dizzy to get sequential would be great eventually, and it wouldn't be all that hard to emulate this behavior on any Hall effect dizzy. You wouldn't have to add another wheel and sensor that way.

[jsmcortina]

Has anyone yet had success with trigger return mode?

James

[MegaScott]

Has anyone yet had success with trigger return mode?

James

I know "Wagon" had TFI going recently on his inline Aussie Ford six, should have been trigger return, but now he has converted to EDIS, which is working as well on MS2extra.

I'll try extra again soon on my Cougar, but I'm still having problems finding a V8 dizzy that has no Sig PIP window. I have a non Sig window, but it doesn't easily fit the newer Sig PIP Dizzy.

Right now I've got it running fairly good on Al's latest dev. code testing out his new Xtau scheme with good success. I will swap to Extra on both of my MS'd vehicles after some Xtau tuning verification, especially since the feature set seems to be locking in with bug fixes tapering off.

[teg]

Trigger return seems to be working with beta8 IF using advanced false trigger method (1.0 ms and 8&). With simple method it just doesn't start and displays half of actual RPM.

[jsmcortina]

Teg,
thanks for testing. Have you checked your advance with a timing light over various advance angles and rpms ?

James

[teg]

I tested some angles with timing light and they look good. My Engine doesn't have any markings for timing, only TDC so I can't say if it is exactly correct.

[teg]

Sometimes, when cranking, fuel pump starts after a delay and then, after a 0,5 sek or so, turns off again for half seconds and then it works normally.