Beta 4: neon/420a

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:40 pm

Yeah.. I was getting full throttle misfiring real bad, and random misfires while driving. One day after a commute home, I went to swap back to my MS1 because I was fed up with the missing. That's when I just about cooked my fingers on the VB's. Checked the megamanual and it suggested going down as low as you could get it to go at idle. I got all the way down to 1.0 with no noticeable change in idle. But it'd stumble when I'd romp on the gas. At 1.2 that went away. The manual said to go .2 above the lowest you could go.. So that's how I came up with 1.4..

Pimp_daddy_Patty · Post by **Pimp_daddy_Patty** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:47 am

Well, the MAP multiply definately was what my new msq had and it changed the VE table completely....the rest, i used the settings but haven't tried em on the car yet. Maybe somebody can have a look at my VE table and my MAT correction....and see if those settings are normal to keep my motor from stalling when letting the motor drop to idle.

BTW I was using the VB's and now i'm using GB14C4's...same thing but have a 20 AMP rating. They're stronger and able to give me more dwell.

Here is the new MSQ:

md95 · Post by **md95** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:17 am

Well your VE table is very strange..Why do you have such low values above 100kpa? YOur max value is like 64%?? You should at least be in the 100% range at 250 kpa.. Also, your spark table is very weak in timing above 100 kpa as well.. You go from 25+ degrees at 80 kpa, then at 100kpa, you are at 11+ degrees.. You want a nice smooth transistion with your timing values. Even at 130 kpa, you still should have at least 20 degrees of timing..At 100 kpa, you can have around 25 degrees, should be a safe start. I would keep timing at the 200 kpa range around 15-17 degrees. This should give you a starting grid point to "guess" the rest of the map safely. The timing table below 80 kpa is ok, but you may want to make your 1500 rpm bin very close to your 1000 rpm bin at your idle kpa, to help keep timing advance smooth at idle(so the engine doesnt surge); same with the VE table at idle. Dont use any MAT based correction to start with, it will only cause grief. Just set the corrections to 0% for now, and if you find you NEED it, then tune it in once you get a decent VE table tune done. Do the same with MAT based timing retard for now too, for your initial tune. I am still NOT SURE about the "60.00" degrees trigger angle figure!!! I dont know if James has redone the Neon code to include this angle, so make sure of this before trying to start it on ignition. I used a much older Alpha code to test, and this was the trigger angle that was needed. James or others using the lastest beta4 code may want to chime in about this..I need to know as well, since i am going to test the beta 4 code very shortly..

Other than those things, it looks ok to start with. Just be carful and take note of the ignitor's temps as the car idles, to be sure its not getting too hot..esp with the info about the dwell times not matching the MS1 dwell times..

Pimp_daddy_Patty · Post by **Pimp_daddy_Patty** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:16 pm

I don't understand the VE table either. As far as spark, the lower part is the SRT-4 spark map. Problem is my MS reads ambient pressure at 87 KPA....anything above was a very safe point to avoid any pinging i was having initially with ms1. The stock SRT-4 timing map has a lot of advance, something my motor with higher compression wouldn't like. As far as the trigger angle, most posts say it's already hardcoded and that setting it won't make any difference in the ignition settings.

BTW:

My setup is:

2001 Plymouth Voyager 2.4L motor
36# injectors
srt-4 Turbofold @ 6 psi

Post by **muythaibxr** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:33 pm

what MAP sensor does your MS have?

Why not use % baro instead of plain speed density?

Ken

Pimp_daddy_Patty · Post by **Pimp_daddy_Patty** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:05 am

muythaibxr wrote:what MAP sensor does your MS have?

Why not use % baro instead of plain speed density?

Ken

I have the 2.5 BAR that came with my MS

md95 · Post by **md95** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:10 am

So you are saying that your MAP reads 87 kpa with the MS powered up, engine off? If so, then that isnt right. It should be in the 98-102 range..I would REALLY try and reload the actual firmware code then go from there, just to make sure you have a good clean code burn to the processor.

Pimp_daddy_Patty · Post by **Pimp_daddy_Patty** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:56 am

The map has always read 87-88 KPA even with ms1. I have my friend's MS unit sitting beside me that reads 92. It also depends on your elevation. According to some posts i've read earlier today, it's completely normal as the sensors aren't that accurate.

For example: http://www.msextra.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... aro#163434

md95 · Post by **md95** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:41 pm

92 seems a bit better..I checked elevation for kitchener, ontario, and its at 334 meters. Here in Grand Rapids, Michigan, its 242 meters. Not a huge difference, but the numbers wont be identical..Of all the MS's i've done, i've never seen that much map value difference between the standard, and even the 4 bar sensors, with both MS1 and 2. I think i've seen anywhere from 96 to 101 from all the different sensors and installs ive done. I'm pretty sure higher elevations makes for lower kpa pressures, so yours is prob close, but i still think its a bit low. I guess it doesnt make THAT much difference, as long as you tune it appropriately.

Pimp_daddy_Patty · Post by **Pimp_daddy_Patty** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:49 pm

Reflashed and retuned from the reflash msq and things worked perfectly. Used my MS1 VE table and it was within 10 percent across the board. Didn't use injector sequencing this time either. Still haven't tried spark but everything looks promising.

md95 · Post by **md95** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:57 pm

I'm not sure on this dwell issue. I just played around with my 4g63,(still using June 17th Alpha) and it was set at 3.3 ms, and the ignitor wasnt getting fried hot or anything. I dropped it down in increments, and it started to missfire at roughly 2.0 ms, and was missing for sure at 1.5ms. I dont know, maybe this dwell issue is with the 420a code?? I was using the default dwell battery correction as well..car running its around 13.8 volts. I really wont be able to test the dwell with an ignitor on my 420a, because i use a Crane igntion box that is fired directly from the MS..and dwell doesnt really effect those..I can rig up a 4g63 ignitor, but i'd hate to rip into my engine bay wiring job..

Its either that, or something was changed/went wrong with dwell cals in the beta codes?? not too sure about it all.. Hopefully i will get some time this weekend to load the latest beta and swap my MS2 card into my 420a, and get some run time and give some feedback.

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:13 pm

I have always had to have low dwell on every MS2/Extra version. It's not a new thing. I kind of wish I could track down an adjustable voltage regulator. I'd really like to get my voltage down from 14.7 to something more sane like 14.2.. I think it's cooking my Optima, it rests at 12.2 now.

Post by **muythaibxr** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:41 am

I'm very confident that there is no dwell problem. I test on a fairly regular basis on the scope, and dwell has always done what I expect. I usually turn off battery correction for testing, but have tested with it on too...

Basically the default settings might just be a little too aggressive.

Ken

md95 · Post by **md95** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:20 am

muythaibxr wrote:I'm very confident that there is no dwell problem. I test on a fairly regular basis on the scope, and dwell has always done what I expect. I usually turn off battery correction for testing, but have tested with it on too...

Basically the default settings might just be a little too aggressive.

Ken

So has anyone else running other wheel codes had to lower their dwell values to the 1.xxms range with MS2 Extra? Max dwell should be very, very close to what MS1 extra was, correct? If so, then why do some of these users report having super hot ignitors with "normal" dwell values around 3.xx ms? I dont think the default batt correction table isn't agressive at all really. Its only like 126% at 12 volts, and most running cars dont see 12 volts, but more around 13.4-14.4 which puts correction between maybe 115%-90%. It's def not like this with the 4/2 cas code, and it just makes me wonder why some of these 420a users have to lower the dwell so much..

md95 · Post by **md95** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:16 am

Anyone have more testing time on the 420a code? I've been too busy lately to even play around with the car..For those using semi-seq settings, what are your teeth numbers set to? Injector bank wiring?? I'll be on vacation next week, so hopefully i can get some good run time on the 420a..

UnaClocker · Post by **UnaClocker** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:45 pm

I've been running it on my daily driver, minimum of 55 miles a day. I have a random miss that could be due to anything. It's pretty rare, so I just live with it for now. I'm not using semi-sequential, since my injectors are small enough to run 4squirts..